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Is the Shiva-Linga a phallic symbol?
Primitive sexuality, symbolic anthropology and transgressive sacrality
[This digest is still being compiled and
copy-edited]
This ongoing
(debate on the) hermeneutics of the Shiva-Linga and its (supposed) 'phallic
symbolism'—sparked off by Sathia's post of 5th July 2003 to the Akandabaratam
forum that suggested a resemblance to Mount Kailash—is actually composed of
multiple intertwined threads that I have attempted to distinguish for the sake
of intelligibility by thick blue separator-lines. Most of the
exchanges—particularly among Sathia,
Pathmarajah Nagalingam, K. Loganathan, Ram
Varmha, Paul Kekai Manansala—took place at Akandabaratam, though my (Sunthar's)
forwarding of some of the threads, along with my own responses, to the Abhinava
forum also sustained parallel discussions there that included Steven A. Feite,
Shiva-Linga and phallic worship: Though the aniconic representation of Shiva is rarely perceived to be such by the vast majority of Hindus who worship it regularly in the temples, its genealogy can be traced back to the realistic images of the phallus, often coupled with yoni-rings that have been found in Mohenjodaro.
Tantric sexuality:
Symbolic anthropology: [to be replaced: Hindu tradition is replete with motifs—such as phallus worship, incest, decapitation, patricide, etc.—that have been explained away within the didactics and apologetics of the exoteric tradition as allegories for profound metaphysical insights. Though the analytical categories and tools in contemporary ‘scientific’ discourse for a systematic and comparative hermeneutics of such ‘transgressive’ symbolism are available only in psychoanalysis, the latter is unable to appropriate these striking ‘confirmations’ without imposing a procrustean straitjacket on the Indian materials. The Freudian legacy—its core principles, therapeutic practices, mode of transmission, institutional ethics, scientific status, cultural politics, and the motives of the founder himself—is moreover being subjected to cogent critique, even and especially, from within the Western intellectual tradition. Instead of remaining a mere ‘object’ for Indological appropriation, the Hindu semiotic system—as embodied by the ‘patient’ Ganesha—must be unraveled by reformulating and universalizing its own esoteric traditions in a ‘psychoanalytically informed’ manner.]
Hindu psychoanalysis:
Related threads at svAbhinava:
The Eunuch and the Androgyne
Hermeneutics of Ganesha: Psychoanalysis, Hindu Wisdom and Transgressive Sacrality
What is ‘rationality’? primitivism, philosophy and semiotics
This thread-compilation
will be eventually complemented by others on psychoanalysis and Orientalism; in
the meantime please check out the (incomplete)
[Divinities:Ganesha; Esotericism:Psychoanalysis;
Politics:Orientalism]
Index to threads below on the "Shiva-Linga" controversy:
Is the Linga a Phallus? ask the Kabbalists, Freud and
(sv)Abhinava!
Re: Is the Linga a Phallus? ask the Kabbalists, Freud and
(sv)Abhinava!
Is the snake a phallic symbol? Don't ask Mr. Nâga-lingam!
Re: Is the snake a phallic symbol? Don't ask Mr.
Nâga-lingam!
Linga technicalities from Cambodia
Fw: [agamicpsychology] castration complex
[agamicpsychology] castration complex
Re: Forms of Siva [zizna-devâh - Sumerian derivation? -
SV]
Ardhanarisvara and the Linga-Yoni
Re: Ardhanarisvara and the Linga-Yoni
Re: Fw: Fantasizing of PHALLACY.
Subject:
From: Sathia [Abhinava msg #???? – order of thread reversed]
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #6301]
Dear Friends,
Could the Shiva Lingam be a representation
of
The shape of
Regards,
Sathia
Subject:
From: S. Kalyanaraman
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #6303]
Yes, indeed, Sathia.
S'iva sits in penance on
The metaphor is vivid, emphatic and unambiguous.
So, the finds of s'iva linga in
Kalyanaraman
Subject:
From: Dr. K Loganathan
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #6304]
Dear Dr Kalyan
Thank you for this. I think Siva Lingkam has been
found in many parts of the world and it may an element of the Collective
Unconcious( to use an Jungian concept). It may be already in the depths of the
mind but pulled into consciousness by some encounter with the environment
especially of the sort where there are hills and rivers of the sort for example
the
The Siva Lingkam as Tirmular has analysedd extenssively is the union of Natam and Bindu and which in mantra language is the union of akaaram and ukaaram and shows itself as aNdalingkam piNdalingkam,cataaciava lingkam aathma lingkam and so forth
It is interesting that even in Sumerian literature, the Kes Temple Hymn which I take as a Hymn on Siva called Keeci ( kaaci?), the Sadaiyan we have similar descriptions - mountains and rivers as aspects of Siva
See below. the liines are from Kes temple Hymn of En Hudu Anna ( C. 2200 BC). Line 52 mentions hills ( Kur, kunRu) and rivers (id, id-da, idim-ma Ta. iidu, oodai)
Loga
The Symbols of Civa
The iconographic identity of Civa given in
the following lines seem to be quite unmistakable:
51. e an-se utug-sul ki-se tun-am (
*Ta. el vaanceey udukku cuul kiizceey tuuN
aam (
( utug Ta. udukku: double faced hand drum;
sul Ta. cuula, cuulam: the spear. tun Ta. tuuN: piLLar; also the pillar -like
civalingm? Also note Ta. tuN : to cut asunder)
52. an-se kur-ra-am ki-se idim-ma-am (
*Ta. vaanceey kunRu aam, kiizceey iidimma
aam (
( idim-ma Ta. iidu> oodu, oodai : a
small river with flowing waters.)
The
utug-sul is very certainly the "udukku-cuul " the Tricuul with the
hand drum, an iconographic feature of Civa to this day , one of the forms he is
worshiped in the North and South of India and elsewhere. And this leads us to
think that the 'tun' at the ground level of the temple is the Ta. tuuN but here
the Civalingam, where the term 'lingam' meaning 'symbol" is perhaps not
native to Tamil, a word that perhaps displaced the original "tuuN" a
word still in use (Ta. taaNu) to describe the Civalingam.
Reinforcing this identification is that of
'kur-ra' , Ta. kuNru and "idim-ma" the stream ( *Ta. iidimma>
oodai?) > This word is retained more as metaphor Ta. iidu : a very extensive
commentary, something that flows like a river?. The very extensive commentaries
on Nalaayira Divya Prabantams are called "iidu" perhaps in this
sense.
The KunRu, the Hill, is certainly
relatable conceptually to the " Kailash", the abode of Civa, the
"idim-ma" with the
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7651]
If I may add to the understanding on this matter.
Lingam in Sanskrit means mark, symbol, representation or icon. Yoni means base, nest, place, place of resting or seat. It is a symbol of Siva placed on a base. That’s all. Correct understanding of the Sanskrit language itself gives a full understanding of the word and meanings.
It is an amorphous (lacking definite form/not human like) icon of Siva representing the unrepresentable transcendent BEING. That’s why its amorphous. Nothing more should be drawn from it. It does not represent creation or regeneration.
It is the icon of the anthropomorphic Nataraja that represents creation, etc. and the immanent BEING, and the personal Lord, as well as the pentapraxis functions of the Lord.
There are other meanings for the linga and yoni too BUT they are incompatible with the subject being discussed. (Just like pasupathi in the context of the Vedas means lord of souls and not 'owner of cattle', as the Vedas does not deal with livestock). Persons who do not (want to) know Sanskrit (deliberately) use the other irrelevant meanings with insidious intentions.
The agamas deal authoritatively with the sivalinga. It simply says the sivalinga should be given the preeminent position in all Siva temples, and it is the supreme icon of Lord Siva. No explanations are given as to why the sivalinga was chosen as an icon of Siva. It simply says install and worship the linga. As the agamas have not been translated and freely available, we are unable to quote an authoritative verse.
The puranas and some
Saints and scholars have speculated on the meanings of sivalinga. These remain speculations, except of course the Tirumantiram, as Tirumular is a canonized saiva saint and therefore authoritative. But no one to my understanding have explained the linga and yoni as a phallus and vulva.
In the 19th century, western scholars began to describe the linga as 'a phallus like symbol', and then Indian scholars too reproduced such explanations. If we read carefully we note that the description is 'phallus like', not 'a phallus'. These explanations have no source in scriptures; they were made to derogate the religion and attribute condescending and vulgar connotations. Unfortunately many Hindus bought the tales.
If the ancient Hindus wanted the linga to in any way mean a phallus, they would have made it abundantly clear in its shape, form and delicate carvings of the details, as I have seen in some Thai Buddhist shrines. And natually all lingas would have been 8 inches long. :) :)
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7652]
Dear Pathma
Just a quick reply. The etymology of Lingkam has been enigmatic and if I am not mistaken Sanskrit roots are not found. Some have said it is Munda etc. However I have across the word 'silig' in Sumerian which is related to Su. sil and Ta. cil, cillu etc and meaning chiseling, chopping, sculpturing etc. We have siling> lingku > lingkam meaning something chiseled carved out and hence a sculpture. From silig we hava also Ta. cilai meaning sculpture. In Sumerian, sculptures were known as 'alan' and which is retained in Ta. alam.kaaram, alam.kari etc i.e to decorate , beautify etc.
The meaning of liGkam as a symbol can also be seen as a derivative meaning from the above. It appears that the SivaliGkam was called 'tun' as in Sumerian as EnHudu Anna's Kes temple hymn and which perhaps is retained in Ta. civa.taaNu which is another name for SivaliGkam.
Now Tirumular's explanation of Sivalingkam would amply justify the pre-eminent position given to SivaliGkam in Saiva worship.
It is the union of ParaBindu (pedestal) and ParaNatam (pillar) and which is also the union the mantras akaaram (yoni) and ukaaram (liGkam) with the union brought together by the mantra makaaram etc. It has also nested within it ANdaliGakam PiNdaliGkam Cataaciva LiGkam AtmaliGkam NjnanaliGkam etc emerging one after another in the world each liGkam being isomorphic with that from which it emerges - e.g the PiNdaliGkam from ANdaliGkam etc.
Recall: man is micro macrocosm while the universe is macrocosmic man etc.
Loga
Subject:
From: Ram Varmha [Abhinava msg #1149 – order of thread has been reversed]
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7654]
Nagalingam wrote:
In the 19th century, western scholars began
to describe the linga as 'a phallus like symbol', and then Indian scholars too
reproduced such explanations. If we read carefully we note that the description
is 'phallus like', not 'a phallus'. These explanations have no source in
scriptures; they were made to derogate the religion and attribute condescending
and vulgar connotations. Unfortunately many Hindus bought the tales. If the
ancient Hindus wanted the linga to in any way mean a phallus, they would have
made it abundantly clear in its shape, form and delicate carvings of the
details, as I have seen in some Thai buddhist shrines. And natually all lingas
would have been 8 inches long. :) :)
Dear Nagalingam,
What you write is not correct.
The origin of Siva Lingam is in the Puranas. You may not like what you read, but it is a fact that it was so written ages before the Westerners got their hands to it. Of course, one can argue that the Puranas were written by low-minded Brahmins, etc. But, the fact remains that the concept of Siva Linga has existed for thousands of years as a Phallus symbol.
Look at the shape of the Lingam. You can clearly see the male lingam penetrating the female yoni. If it was meant to be otherwise, why would "they" model such a shape? The statistical probability of "some one (who?)", picking such a shape, to represent some thing else, will be astronomical. It just do not stand to reason.
Personally, I do not see anything negative about
the Linga being a Phallus symbol. There is nothing vulgar about it being a
symbol of "Life'. You and I and all the billions and billions of life
forms around us are the products of procreation. What is wrong in symbolizing
Life in the form of the
The 19th century Westerners made it look bad and ever since then Hindus have been scurrying to find new meanings to the form of Lingam, to deviate from the scorns cast by the ignorant Westerners.
Perhaps, the beauty of it all is that different people can find differernt interpretations to this beautiful, unique and truly glorious Representation of Life!
Take it as you will.
Regards, Ram
Read on:
Vamana Purana
When naked Lord Shiva was wandering in the Daruvanam forest, the wives of sages lost self control for Lord Shiva was the most beautiful and attractive man and they at once were seduced by the Lord. The sages who failed to recognize the Lord thought he was an ordinary mortal and cursed him: May the Lingam (penis) of this man fall to the ground! That instant the Lingam of Shiva fell to the ground, and the God immediately disappeared. The Lingam, as it fell, penetrated through the earth to the lower worlds and increased in height until it towered above the heavens. The earth quaked, all things movable and immovable agitated. Brahma and Vishnu then decided to find the ends of the great Lingam, while Vishnu mounted on Garuda descended down and Brahma on his lotus ascended the heavens. They returned to where they started unable to find the ends of the great Lingam, and with great reverence and praise they requested Lord Shiva to resume his Lingam. Lord Shiva thus propitiated appeared and said: If gods and men will worship, I will resume it. To this proposal Brahma and Vishnu and all other Gods agreed and since then the Lingam is worshipped by all.
Shiva Purana
On falling in consequence of the sages’ curse, the Lingam became like fire, and caused a conflagration wherever it penetrated; the three worlds were distressed, and as neither Gods nor sages could find rest, they hastened for protection to Brahma. Having heard them relate all that happened, Brahma replied, “After having committed knowingly a reprehensible act, why say that it was done unknowingly? Every one shall reap the fruit of his good or bad actions, and the Lingam therefore shall not cease to distress the worlds until the God resumes it. Propitiate by adoration the mountain-born Goddess, and she will assume the form of Yoni (vagina) and receive the Lingam, by which means only it can be rendered innocuous. After obtaining the consent of Parvati, form a vessel of eight kinds of leaves, place in it boiled rice and sacred plants, having it filled with holy water, consecrate with proper prayers and invocations, and with water repeating at the same time suitable prayers, sprinkle the Lingam. After Parvati receives the Lingam in her Yoni, you erect and consecrate the form of Lingam in the Yoni. By worshipping it with offerings of flowers, perfumes and such things, by kindling lamps before it, and by singing music propitiate Maheswara and he will forgive you.” As per Brahma’s instructions, the Gods and sages sought the assistance of Parvati. Parvati received in her Yoni the Lingam and appeased its consuming fire. In commemoration of this event the worship of Lingam was instituted.
Linga Purana
Brahma said to angels, “When I sprang into
existence, I beheld the mighty Narayana reposing on the abyss of waters, and,
being under the influence of delusion, awakened him with my hand and addressed
him: ‘who art thou that thus slumberest on this terrible ocean?’ Hari awoke
dispelling sleep from his lotus eyes, looked upon me and then arising said,
‘Welcome, welcome O Pitamaha, my dear son!’ On hearing the first of the Gods
speak, I confined within the bonds of the quality of impurity, replied: why
dost thou say, my dear son? For know me to be the eternal god, the
universal spirit, the creator, the preserver and the destroyer of the three
worlds.’ He immediately answered, “Hear the truth, Oh four-faced! And learn
that it is I who am the creator, the preserver, and the destroyer, how canst
thou forget Narayana the self-existent and eternal Being?’ hence arose terrible
combat amidst the waters of the deluge, where to appease the contest and recall
us to our senses, appeared a Lingam blazing like a thousand suns. Bewildered by
its radiant beams, Hari thus said to me lost in amazement, ‘I will proceed
downwards in order to ascertain the termination of this wondrous column of
fire, do thou, O lord, proceed upwards and seek for its top.’ Having thus
spoken he assumed the form of a boar, and I that of a swan, and we both
proceeded in our search for four thousand years, but being unable to ascertain
its termination, we then returned back wearied and disappointed. Thus still
under influence of delusion, we prostrated ourselves before the Lingam, and
were reflecting on what it could be. Then we heard a voice saying
Skanda Purana and Visva-Sara-Prakasha
One day, naked Mahadeva with a club in his hand chanced to pass by near a place where several sages were performing their devotions. Mahadeva laughed at them, insulted and provoked them with gestures and signs. The sages cursed him and his Lingam or Phallus fell to the ground. Mahadeva in this state of mutilation traveled over the world bewailing his misfortune and his consort Parvati ran after him singing mournful songs. The world thus stopped procreation and came to a standstill. Gods and men searched for the sacred Lingam and found it grown to an immense size. They cut it with hatchets into thirty-one pieces that became perfect Lingams. The Gods left twenty-one on earth and took nine to heaven and removed one to netherworld.
Subject:
Is the Linga a Phallus? ask the Kabbalists, Freud and
(sv)Abhinava!
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7655]
Those who deny the phallic character of the linga
(or of Ganesha's trunk/tusk....) typically indulge in a selective reading of
Shaiva scripture and especially of its 'philosophical' elaborations that
reveals little insight into the esoteric experiences and practices that animate
Linga worship:
* Linga is (not just but) more than the Phallus - already
those from Mohenjodaro clearly resemble the human sexual organs, their closest
parallels being found among the African 'Dravidians' (I'm not aware of any
official linga-cult in Sumeria despite the 'philological' acrobatics on
the part of some to prove the same....). Even when the iconography does not
obviously reveal its bodily origin, as in the case of the Newar New Year poles,
its ritual manipulation is clearly recognized even by the most 'simple-minded'
worshippers as reflecting the procreative function. This is affirmed even by
the Indian Muslims in their worship of Ghazi Miyan in the form of
a pole in Nepal and North India. The "origin of the
linga" myths, reproduced below, have been thoroughly analyzed in
* Yesod and Malkhut (mûla) in the Kabbala - similar sexual symbolism is seen in the sefirotic tree (see Charles Mopsik's contribution on Union and Unity), where the 10 sefira are understood as constituting as it were the "Body of God" that the Kabbalist and his wife attempt to unify by uniting during the evening of the Sabbath (just as the Linga constitutes not just the body of Shiva but the whole universe - vizva-lingam!). The "righteous man" (tzaddic) of Jewish 'bhakti' (i.e., Hassidic) literature is identified precisely with the Yesod. So Freud was not being all that original when he saw the phallus beseiging him on all sides in so many disguises like his inexhaustible pen or expandable umbrella. Indeed, in (especially Lacanian) psychoanalysis, the Phallus is detachable, disembodied, object of intense rivalry (esp. between father and son...), and even walks around on its own (like a sign that has lost its moorings...). Of course, these abstractions have none of the charm of Shaiva myth!
* Ever seen a fiery Linga that devours the whole world? You'll find it in Abhinavagupta's 'description' of (his internal experience of) the Kula-Yâga! Clearly, the Phallus in question is identical with the 'light' (jyotir-linga) and 'consuming' power (recall that the Unnamable appeared before Moses as a burning bush...) of the supreme Consciousness. This 'metaphysical' identification has its roots in a transformative sexual experience around which all the mythical tales are spun and the temple rituals elaborated (why was sacred prostitution practiced within their walls?). Blood sacrifices (why is the Lord of Shaiva-Siddhânta called 'Pazu-pati'?) at the yûpa (and by Kannapa Nâyanâr to the linga...) is a way of registering and emphasizing that such a 'liberating' (mokSa) experience is the equivalent of death. Similarly, Moses could not have looked upon the Face of God without losing his life (he apparently managed to get away with just a singed beard...) and, in the Jewish tradition, to receive the 'kiss of the Shekinah' (the feminine power of the Divine) spells certain death.
If we want to counter the Orientalist
pastime of demeaning 'Hindu' practices, our first obligation is to
understand them better ourselves...
Sunthar
[rest of this thread at RE:
iconography of Ganesha - why not start by comparing him with the VidûSaka (a
real 'gourmet' if there was one...)?]
Subject:
Re: Is the Linga a Phallus? ask the Kabbalists, Freud and
(sv)Abhinava!
From: Steven A Feite [Abhinava msg #1150]
Date: Thu
If we accept that the scriptures which describe the lingam are products of Samadhi--and the insights that level of "seeing" brings are different than the gross which observes mere physical forms, is it not possible then that the ling is actually the linga-sharira--the subtle body and the the yoni-lingam symbolism is merely an outward expression of an inner bio-energetic reality? If yogis possess "super-knowledge" from their inner ecstasies, it only makes sense that this had to be "dumbed down" for mundane, externalized worshippers: the temple crowd. And of course the Brahmin's had to have part the Shiva cult, so they sanitized the ritual for fun and profit (prophet?).
Regarding your allusion to the Kabbalah, while there ARE sexual references and mysteries to be weaned here, I feel you are missing the mark. Moseh's ascent to Atziluth seems to have little parallel to linga worship, but it does have some parallels to the idea of the vimarsa-shakti (esp. as in Shri Vidya).
Sincerely,
Steve Feite
Subject:
From: Dr K. Loganathan
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7659]
The Replicating LiGkam
While it is true that the SivaliGkam is very
ancient and is found in the Indus Sumeria ancient China Greece and so forth, it
is also the case that it is only in Saivism that it has been a central symbol
of Divine presence and worshipped and contemplated as thus. On top of that it
is also the case that in Tamil Saivism, this symbol has played a very important
place in their metaphysical sojourns . Every
I have seen in my travels in Tamil Nadu a peculiar LiGkam where on the massive SivaliGkam we have also hundreds of little SivaliGkams carved so much so that the large SivaliGkam appear to give birth continuously to countless number of little SivaliGkams. I want to now connect this SivaliGkam with the notion of “replicating SivaliGkam” that Tirumular appears to articulate in the Seventh Tantra verses 1704- 1777 that I have translated with commentary.
The most important notion available here is that the SivaliGkam, in addition to being a structural complex generated by the union of ParaNatam and ParaBindu and which is simultaneously the union of the aksaras akaaram and ukaaram and because of which BEING also becomes Siva-Sakti, the Ammaiyappar, it is also which gives rise to the birth of AndaliGkam, PiNdaliGkam, Cataaciva LiGkam, Atma LiGkam and Nnjaana LiGkam.
These AndaliGkam etc are REPLICATIONS of the primordial SivaliGkam but at different LOCALATIES. For the formation of the Physical Universe we have the AndaliGkam, for the genesis of the physical body of the living creatures we have the PiNda LiGkam, for the genesis of the Cultural Component of the Metaphysical world we have the Cataaciva LiGkam, for the genesis for the psychophysical body of the anmas the Atma LiGkam and for the Hermeneutic or cognitive essence of the anmas the NjanaliGkam and so forth.
Thus the SivaliGkam REPLICATES itself or more properly BEING replicates it, in different physical-metaphysical realms so that there are many elements with structure and function and enjoying presence of existence.
This raises the possibility that each such a replication is ISOMORPHIC with the primordial SivaliGkam and hence have the same structure but differ in the functional manifestations. For example while the PiNdaliGkam regulates the physical part of the human body, the Atma LiGkam with the psychological and so forth.
Thus we have from the ParaNatam and ParaBindu, the aparaMNatam and aparaBindu etc.
But why such a replication? Each replication is a union of Natam and Bindu and which is akin to the sexual union. In fact the sexual act of the creatures is certainly an instance of this REPLICATION of the SivaliGkam but only just an instance. More universally it is Natam releasing the Potential Energy that is locked up in some form of Bindu. For example at the mental level, only when there is a replication of SivaliGkam in the mental realms and there is Natam penetrating into the locked up Bindu, that cognitive energy can be released and the mind made creative and productive.
Thus such replications are a MEANS of supplying ENERGY or Power to different realms and with that energize the realms and let the latent elements make themselves actively present as such.
Just some thoughts for the comments of our friends.
Loga
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam [Abhinava msg #1158 – order of thread reversed]
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7673]
Thank you for the responses Ram, Dr. Loga and Sunthar. Already we see three different views of the linga. One sees a linga emerging from the yoni (why would this be?). Ram sees a linga penetrating a yoni (a view from the inside?). And I simply see a pillar-like icon on a pedestal. I don't see an innuendo to a sexual union at all.
Besides I explained that the linga represents the transcendent, which is even beyond parabindu, paranatam and even parashakti. At the transcendental level these things do not exist. All these mentioned are 'within existence' and everything within existence is represented by the icons of Nataraja as well as that of Ardhanarishvara.
In my view, the references to bindu and natam by Tirumular and others are references to the merging of the astral ida and pingala currents into the sushumna, leading to jnana. This too appears like a tower of flame to the yogi in samadhi. When we worship the sivalinga, we are reminded of our goals and visions during meditations. Perhaps this is why the sivalinga has come to be worshipped. Much of Tirumular's writings is allegorical too, and much of it can make sense only to a meditator. Verses composed by Tirumular when he was in the various cakras can only be understood by a person while his kundalini is in the same cakra. Therefore trying to fully comprehend Tirumular is futile.
This same idea is told metaphorically in the purana stories like the ones reproduced by Ram Varmha. We have all read such puranic tales. Here the linga is a towering flame that Brahma (ida) and Vishnu (pingala) search for. These puranic stories cannot be taken at face value. They are metaphorical retelling of truths. The same with those puranic stories of how the linga came to be worshipped. The authors of these puranas use satire, innuendoes, allegories and double entendre to hide and convey a message. And the origin of the linga is not in the puranas as it existed even before that.
These stories also convey that where there is ego (Brahma and Vishnu), the ultimate truths cannot be known (their search for the source of the flame in vain), the ida and pingala will not rise further and merge into the sushumna. Merging takes place when the ego is released (the surrender and bowing of Brahma and Vishnu). It also conveys that worshipping of these gods (Brahma and Vishnu) takes the aspirant only till the ajna chakra, no more. Merging takes place in the sahasra chakra and it continues into several more chakras above the head representing the various stages of samadhi.
Hence these gods exist within the 24 tattvas (ajna) and do not extend over the 36 tattvas (sahasra), let alone beyond it. Up until this stage of unfoldment, till the ajna that is, these gods will appear real and everything written and told about them is the truth. Beyond that stage only Siva exists and even the soul will begin to disappear/lose separate identity.
Nataraja is the icon representing Siva within all
36 tattvas. The linga represents the BEING which is beyond the 36 tattvas. Transcendal means
transcending the 36 tattvas. Seeing in this light, now everything begins to make sense and we reaffirm the truths in
the Vedas as well as the puranic stories, and there is no place for any sexual innuendoes connected with the linga.
We know that gods dont have dicks. :) Gods do not
have attributes of gender at all! Only those with physical bodies have attributes of gender. Gods dont
go around dancing and enticing peoples' wives either! Dicks dont drop off at curses though some people in
Besides, my main point is in the incorrectness in correlating the puranic stories of Siva's penis (linga) dropping off with the worship of the sivalinga murthi, though both use the words 'linga'. This is the classic misunderstanding. In each of the instances the word 'linga' is used, except that in the puranic story the meaning in that context is 'penis', and in the context of the worship of the sivalinga murthi the meaning intended is 'icon of Siva', and NOT the phallus at all!
The joy and pain of Sanskrit and Tamil too is that each word has several entirely different meanings, and its root meanings are retained and altogether different, and that each word too has several similar words, each of it conveying an entirely different message, as well as varied idioms and acronyms. The pain is that this leads to complete and utter misunderstandings. Instead of talking about bonded souls we talk about cattle. Instead of talking about icons of worship we talk of penises. For these good reasons the Vedas are also known as marai arivu.
Furthermore, these icons installed in a temple is
to draw/evoke the shakti of the lord by way of pujas. The installed linga is a 'machine',
a facilitator, an instrument, a tool, a means of achieving an end. For this
reason ONLY there is no need at all for
any sexual connotations as it would be absolutely pointless. It is simply
an icon and tool much like a road sign
or traffic lights. Whatever shape of an amorphous icon is 'chosen' it
would either be a line or a circle or
both, and one can always draw any or sexual connotations from it.
Regards all.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7674]
Before the insinuations rolls in...
If anyone thinks my surname means 'snakedick' would be preposterous and absurd and bizarre.....and crazy, extreme, harebrained, incredible, insane, irrational, lamebrained, laughable, loony, ludicrous, monstrous, nonsensical, outrageous, ridiculous, senseless, shocking, thick, too much, unbelievable, unreasonable, unthinkable, unusual, wacky, wild, cracked, daft, deranged, foolish, idiotic, mentally incompetent, moronic, cockeyed, derisive, clownish, comical, cracked up, atrocious, deplorable, nefarious, notorious, farfetched, melodramatic AND absolutely false.
:) :) :)
Subject:
Is the snake a phallic symbol? Don't ask Mr. Nâga-lingam!
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam [Abhinava msg #1158]
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7705]
The 'root support' (mûlâdhâra) at the base
of the spine is represented by a downward pointing (adhovaktra) triangle
(trikona), for the sexual energies are normally dissipated downwards. It is the
seat of the dormant kundalinî coiled around the germinal point (bindu)
representing Shiva and the essence of virility. The intimate relation of this
center with the sexual and reproductive functions is underlined through other
names like the 'base of generation' (janmâdhâra) and 'place of the womb'
(yoni-sthâna). When the adept successfully inverts this triangle so that the
opening at its apex is directed upwards, virile energy is instead drawn into
the median channel through an opening called medhra-kanda 'bulb (at the base)
of the penis.' [...] The upturning of the inverted triangle (female) at
the mûlâdhâra results in its elevation through the flow of kundalinî to the
point between the eyebrows, where it unites with the upper triangle (male) to
form the six-pointed (shatkona) 'Seal of Solomon' at the brahmarandhra. This
coincidence of Shiva and Shakti so that they share a common bindu symbolizes
the highest experience of unity possible in the body. Most pertinent is that
the interaction or 'friction' of these two 'lotuses' leading to their fusion is
conceived as a mode of sexual union that may be facilitated by, synchronized
with and wholly assimilated to an external copulation, which is precisely what
happens during the kula-yâga. The inner union of the triangles, which restores
the original unity of the opposed—masculine and feminine—principles, is
represented in Hinduism in the figure of the ardhanârîçvara or
androgyne. [...] The unity achieved through union is simultaneously
realized on three correlated levels which are experientially and symbolically
superposed so as to seal it with the essence of the supreme posture (khecarî-mudrâ,
TA 29.150-4). The friction (sanghatta) within the median channel of the sun and
the moon representing all the pairs of dualities—from the most material
ovum/sperm to the most abstract knowledge/known level—results in the production
of Fire representing both the (supreme) knower and the resulting conception.
This unitive friction serves to equate the external union between the male and
the female (organs) with the friction between the lower inverted triangle at
the mûlâdhâra and the upper upright triangle, which is precisely what awakens
the kundalinî in the median channel and ultimately leads to their total fusion
above. Since the stem of the median channel is also visualized as inseparably
linked to the sex-organs—as it indeed is in the esoteric experience—there
results a symbolic identification of the male and female united through the
phallus with the sexually polarized triangular lotuses strung on and united
through the median channel. It is no doubt here, in the reciprocal
'sexualization' of the median channel and the 'spiritualization' of the coital
exchange, that the mythical identity of the axis mundi with the linga has its
true rationale. The germ which sprouts in the womb from the union of the male
and the female is hence simultaneously fertilized by the spiritual seed
descending the median channel from the union on high represented by the seal of
Solomon. [...] The compenetration (samâveça) which results in the
'sexualization' of the supreme Consciousness and the 'divinization' of the body
is perhaps best summed up in Abhinava's closing declaration that "the body
itself is the supreme linga, the auspicious Shiva comprising all the elements,
the dwelling of the (primary) wheel of divine energies, and the abode of the
highest worship (pûjâ).
Elizabeth Visuvalingam, Union and Unity in Hindu Tantrism
In the fourth act of Mâlavikâgnimitra, while Gautama is dozing seated
upright at the door of the pavilion (samudragRha), the maid startles him: “I’ll
frighten this would-be brahmin, who is terrified of serpents, by dropping on
him his own staff, which is crooked like a serpent.” Though this is the only
instance of the kuTilaka’s
comic misapprehension as a snake, it fits in very well with the parallel
assimilation of GaNeza’s curved elephant-trunk to a serpent, and the universal
identification of the snake with the phallus, which is the most pronounced
signification of the crooked stick. However, the snake has another characteristic
that makes it an excellent representation of the dîkSita, namely its slithering back into its
nest within mother-earth through a narrow hole, whose entrance is often
sheltered by an ant-hill [vâlmîka]
yet another womb-symbol of the primordial mound. The snake’s ‘incestuous’
penetration is simultaneously a return to the pre-natal condition, the cipher
for a process that is particularly well encoded by the mother-snake swallowing
her son in the ‘Burning of the KhâNDava Forest’ episode of the Mahâbhârata. The sacred-thread worn across the shoulder
by the twice-born is itself assimilated to a snake in the stereotyped label of
‘left-leaning’ gods such as Ziva, Bhairava and GaNeza as ‘having a snake for a
sacrificial thread’ (sarpa-yajñopavîta) – Lord Ziva is typically
represented encircled by a snake instead of the usual slim ‘umbilical’ cord. A
further meaning would be that of the coiled serpentine-power (kuNDalinî) dormant at the bottom of the
spine whose awakening and elevation towards the head accompanies the
embryogonic regression of the dîkSita.
Gautama had dozed of in a specific upright seated posture that recalls the
Pâzupata’s obligatory practice of feigning sleep by snoring (krâThana). Moreover, this incident
occurs at the entrance to the “Ocean-House” (samudra-gRha)—the name of the pavilion, where
the hero and heroine consummate their love, suggests a replica of the womb.
Kâlidâsa is as it were showing his royal patron how to turn his sexual prowess
and pleasure to good use. [analysis of Uttanka episode goes here]
Sunthar V, "Snake" (section of chapter) On the 'crookedness' of the Vidûsaka - extract from book in progress...
Dear Mr. Snake-Lingam,
You are certainly right in (re-) affirming that
the linga represents the (cosmic) pillar (axis mundi) and that, like the snake (nâga), it cannot be understood outside the
context of esoteric practices for raising the serpentine power (kuNDalinî) up the median channel. The (i.e.,
your) problem, however, is that these various meanings cannot merge together in
the iconography of the linga without the
sexual dimension, which is so explicit in the Tantras. Despite various claims
being made on the Akandabaratam forum about Zaiva-Siddhânta being a
"Dravidian" (read Tamil) religious system, the historical evidence
shows that
The representation of two
upright snakes flanking a central column (reminiscent of the caduceus of
Hermes) is a very archaic one in Elamite civilization (4000 BC?). Not only is
this suggestive of kuNDalinî type practices, it also fits in well with other 'African'
motifs and religious ideas so characteristic of
The first thing that
needs to be given up if anyone wants to take even the first steps in
understanding Hindu (or any other traditional) symbolism is the
"either/or" mentality. The fact that the linga on its pedestal
represents copulation (and hence penetration) does not prevent the iconography
showing the latter emerging from the yoni. This is because the 'base' physical reality has been
iconographically transformed to encode, conserve and transmit abstract ideas
and, eventually, a complex experience that cannot be easily described
otherwise. If you take the trouble to visit some museums or even read some
illustrated books, you'll come across realistic representations like the
Gudimallam lingam on which Shiva is depicted as a Pâzupata ascetic. Your
English-educated gods may not go around dancing and seducing other people's
wives but those in most archaic (including the Greek) traditions do (even the
God-fearing folk in the Old Testament have not been immune...). What else is Natarâja
but the projection of the (inner trance-state of
the) dancing Pâzupata ascetic in the form of a deity to be worshipped?
You claim that "the
authors of these puranas use satire, innuendoes, allegories and double entendre
to hide and convey a message," yet you don't allow them the liberty to
exploit the polysemy of words, like linga, to include meanings you find distasteful (though
such sandhyâ-bhâSâ is canonized in both the Veda and the Tantras, where
the sexual meaning of even Indra's dhvaja is quite explicit...). You don't believe that gods can have
phalluses but you believe that they should be worshipped in anthropomorphic
form in the temples... if we want to be fully 'rational', perhaps we should
stop casting them in our own image altogether (i.e., convert to Islam?). Dump
the Purânas, and we no longer have any clue as to whether Shiva (or Vishnu and
the others, for that matter...) ever existed. After all, the identity of a
specific temple in (especially South)
As to who is really
'crazy', you may recall that Lord Shiva in one of the myth-fragments makes
obscene gestures at the Sages (and their wives). This was precisely the
obligatory behavior of the ithyphallic (brahmin!) Pâzupata ascetic, who sought
to be taken as a madman. Isn't this what the saint Sundarar called the
unrecognized Shiva in his 'divine play' (Tiru-vilaiyâDal), who subsequently
insisted that the enlightened (and repentant) devotee, when singing the
praises of the supreme Clown and Trickster, continue to address him as such?
Adjacent to the main sanctuary at Pazupatinâth, the most sacred and royal
shrine of Nepal, is shrine to the 'Mad' (Unmatta-) Bhairava depicted with an
imposing erect linga that young brides touch with great reverence after having
worshipped the central linga. Apparently, the orthodox Bhâtta priests from
What I find
"preposterous....AND absolutely false" is that anyone, especially
those purportedly more (Western) educated and hence enlightened than their
credulous ancestors, could claim that the linga has no sexual dimension whatever...
Sunthar
[rest of this thread at Is the Linga a Phallus? ask the Kabbalists,
Freud and (sv)Abhinava!]
Subject:
Re: Is the snake a phallic symbol? Don't ask Mr.
Nâga-lingam!
From: Ram Varmha
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7708]
Good posting, Sunthar!
Regards,
Ram
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7720]
Dear Mr. Fair & Lovely, :) :)
Are you a cream? :) See how we can go on
with connotations and innuendoes? :)
For some reason you have an affinity towards sex, sexual union and you see everything in those terms. Even a snake, a snake crawling into a hole, ganesha's trunk, the rising of the kundalini, the sacred thread even, all has sexual implications and connotations for you. Even in my name you see s ex. What is with you and sex? :) Perhaps the sex orientated western society and education has disorientated you?
Let me assure you that my name has no relation to sex at all! Does Visvalingam mean 'cosmic dick'? :) What about 'sundar lingam'? :) I wager that a person standing still would appear as a phallus to you. :)
Your reproductions on kundalini yoga simply affirms what I said about natam, bindu and the tower like pillar of light rising, and which you agree with. But why go further and see a sexual union in it? Why not just stop there?
It may have occurred to you that in the area of yoga and meditation, there i s no sex at all; indeed the aspirant is encouraged to abstain from sex and be a brahmachari. Therefore you see yoga and sex pulling in the direct opposites, and hence these cannot have similar connotations but on the cont rary the extreme opposite. This argument alone settles the issue.
I don't disagree about Pasupathinath and the peculiarities
of its erect linga m there based on local legends and
Please don't juxtapose the Bacchus religion with siddhanta and confuse the readers of Hindus being ithyphallic. Your references to Sundarar's 'pithan' is way out of context;here Sundarar and Siva are having a relationship like friends. Its okay for friends to call each other daft ormoron or 'hey stupid'. :)
You claim that "the authors of these puranas use satire, innuendoes, allegories and double entendre to hide and convey a message," yet you don 't allow them the liberty to exploit the polysemy of words, like linga, to include meanings you find distasteful (though such sandhyâ-bhâSâ is canonized in both the Veda and the Tantras, where the sexual meaning of e ven Indra's dhvaja is quite explicit...).
I do allow for the double entendres but in trying to explain the meanings of linga, we should provide the intended meaning and show that the other meanings are just the double entendres and not meant to be taken seriously. In explaining we should weed out the non intended meanings. The non intended meanings serve as a ruse, a play of poetry and words, and pun and satire. Surely you see this?
In the Rig it says, 'Who created the world'? It
uses the word 'ka', (kya/who)? Just like Hu is the president of
You don't believe that gods can have phalluses but you believe that they should be worshipped in anthropomorphic form in the temples...
Sure. I don't see a conflict. We are just icon worshippers and these anthropomorphic images are just icons for us and not designed to be exact copies of the gods.
Your English-educated gods may not go around dancing and seducing other people's wives but those in most archaic (including the Greek) traditions do (even the God-fearing folk in the Old Testament have not been immune...).
Sure, in other cultures. But it has nothing to do with saivism.
The fact that the linga on its pedestal represents copulation (and hence penetration) does not prevent the iconography showing the latter emerging from the yoni.
It is not a fact that the linga represents copulation. Please do not use th e word 'fact' unless you support it by some quotes from the 28 agamas or Tirumantiram that says 'copulation'. ForSaiva Siddhanta these are the only authoritative texts, along with the vedas of course.
If you take the trouble to visit some museums or even read some illustrated books, you'll come across realistic representations like the Gudimallam lingam on which Shiva is depicted as a Pâzupata ascetic.
Sure. These are all tantric and pasupatha icons - nothing to do with saivasiddhanta.
The sacred-thread worn across the shoulder by the twice-born is itself assimilated to a snake in the stereotyped label of `left-leaning' gods such as Ziva, Bhairava and GaNez a as `having a snake for a sacrificial thread' (sarpa-yajñopavîta) – Lord Z iva is typically represented encircled by a snake instead of the usual slim `umbilical' cord.
'Left leaning'? This is too much. Having a dick (snake) for a sacred thread ! Stop dreaming all these kinki sexual fantasies. :)
You are certainly right in (re-) affirming that the linga represents the (cosmic) pillar (axis mundi) and that, like the snake (nâga), it cannot b e understood outside the context of esoteric practices for raising the serpentine power (kuNDalinî) up the median channel. The (i.e., your) problem, however, is that these various meanings cannot merge together in the iconography of the linga without the sexual dimension, which is so explicit in the Tantras.
You are right Sunthar. This is my problem because I see the intended meanin g as the true meaning and the other meaning as a double entendre inserted by the author to hide the truemeaning. Just like in the puranic stories. The meanings cannot merge in the iconography because it does not f it! It may be explicit in the tantras but not in the agamas.
Despite various claims being made on the Akandabaratam
forum about Zaiva-Siddhânta being a "Dravidian" (read Tamil ) religious
system, the historical evidence shows that
You probably have some qualms with Dr. Loga on the historicity of siddhanta and I'll let him handle this.
The representation of two upright snakes
flanking a central column (reminiscent of the caduceus of Hermes) is a very archaic
one in Elamite civilization (4000 BC?). Not only is this suggestive of
kuNDalinî type practices, it also fits in well with other 'African' motifs and
religious ideas so characteristic of
It may be so that the snake may represent the phallus in other cultures but not in saiva siddhanta. In siddhanta the snake coiled around Siva's neck represents the physical world and its pleasures and pain and that these are just 'toys' and decorations on Him. Nothing more. The two sn akes does represent the two lateral breaths, indicating yoga, and union of nadam and bindu. Thats all.Why sex?
I see that you have not at all rebutted anything I said in my earlier posti ngs of eleven paragraphs. Indeed you agree, but just insist in further incorporating the sexual innuendoes intosaivite iconography.
I visited your site and read some of your work and that of (presumably) you r wife. Please note that these are your scholarly musings and speculations and it does not mean it is true. Ju st your opinions. I am also not saying tantric views are wrong, or that Abinavagupta is wrong; just sayingthat it is not saivism. We all know of the tantric practices, of the kalamukhas, kapalikas and their eccentricviews and practices and Abinavagupta is one of them. But tantras are not Saivite scripture! They are Sakta. Andthe kalamukhas and kapalikas are long dead and gone. All these has nothing to do with Saivism or Saiva Siddh anta which is what this site is about.
Sunthar, you are a sakta as it shows in your writings and arguments. Theseare the classical sakta arguments and views. As long as you say that yours are sakta views on iconography, Iwill accept and be happy. Otherwise, what we have is a sakta confusing the saivites in this forum.
I respect your work as a scholar and your contributions. Please do not be o ffended by my response but enjoy the satire. :)
Regards.
Pathma
Subject:
Re: Digest Number 453
From: Antonio de Nicolás
Sent:
To:
Dear Sunthar and friends:
[...] I am
inclined to believe that by the simple act of writing down the oral texts, the
writers (whoever they were) interfered with the text. Thus instead of Agni and
the unborn musical measure of one foot "aja eka pada" we find
expressions like "a one footed goat," for in a Semitic language aja
means goat. Look also at the proliferation of "the path of the
fathers" and "semen" in the Mahabharata... [...]
OM, SHANTI
Antonio de Nicolas
[Antonio's
full post at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/1176 ]
Subject:
From: Sunthar
Sent:
To: Abhinavagupta@yahoogroups.com
Cc: akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com; [...]
Dear Antonio,
>
Sunthar
>
PPS. Aja also means 'goat' in Sanskrit and
the notion of a 'one-footed goat' seems quite legitimate in terms of its
sacrifice at/to the pole (foot).
[Sunthar's full post at The <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/1178> Book as the origin of culture and religion - is 'Hinduism' (the product of) a literate civilization?]
Subject:
From: Sunthar
Visuvalingam [Abhinava msg
#7888]
Date: Sun
The royal character of the Bisket cosmogony
becomes explicit in the Indra Jâtrâ of neighboring Katmandu where the linga is
identified instead, as in the Vedic cosmogony, with the (dhvaja-emblem of the)
king of the gods Indra, who rains on the Valley before the full-moon of Bhâdra
(September). As prescribed by the Brhat-Samhitâ (chap. 43), the pole is dragged
on the 8th day of the bright half of Bhâdrapada into the capital and the
festival begins with its erection on the 12th day. According to the Brhat
Samhitâ, the pole should preferably be from an Arjuna tree, and another staff
should also be raised as Indra's mother. Another Grhya-Sûtra prescribes the
‘Indra sacrifice’ (Indra-yajña) with oblations to Indrânî, Aja Ekapâda,
Ahirbudhnya, etc., to be performed on the full-moon day itself of Bhâdrapada
(see Ekapâda-Bhairava, n.106 below). The Newars refer to the Bisket and Indra
Jatra poles as yalasin, and the ancient name for Patan viz. Yala = Yûpagrama,
along with the representation of the yûpa in accurate detail in contemporary
sculpture, no doubt attests to the early implantation of Vedic sacrificial
ideology from Licchavi times.
Elizabeth Visuvalingam, The Khatvânga-Bhairava: Executioner, Victim and Sacrificial Stake [ad note #93]
In the earliest Orissan temples, the
various forms of Shiva are invariably depicted with upraised (ûrdhva-) linga,
and at one stage of his historical evolution Jagannâtha was apparently
identified with Bhairava, the form he still assumes to symbolically copulate
with the ‘dancer-courtesan’ (devadâsî = Bhairavî) during the evening ritual. It
has been suggested that the ithyphallic ‘single-footed’ Ekapâda Bhairava, whose
images are so frequent in predominantly tribal Orissa, was easily able to assimilate,
through his very iconography, tribal wooden-post divinities accepting blood
sacrifices. But this Tantric divinity associated with the Yoginîs is himself
derived from the Vedic Aja (‘Goat’ = ‘Unborn’) Ekapâda, a multiform of Agni
(‘Fire’) who appears as the central pillar of the world and is juxtaposed to
Ahir-Budhnya, ‘the Serpent of the Deep’ (see note 93). The inherent tension of
the Vedic ‘sacrificial post’ (yûpâ), standing ambivalently astride the
sacrificial boundary, could equally permit the pacific assimilation of bloody
tribal posts and the exteriorization of its own sacrificial violence effaced in
classical Brahmanism. It is probably because of Jagannâtha's identity with the
tribal Vedic sacrificial post that the wood (dâru) for Jagannâtha's new body
during the Navakalevara is cut down from a tree chosen through such
transgressive criteria as the following: on a snake-hole with creeping snakes,
beside an anthill, near a cremation-ground, Shiva temple, river, pond,
surrounded by three mountains, on a crossing of three ways (= confluence of
rivers).
Elizabeth Visuvalingam, The ‘Tribalizing’ Ekapâda-Bhairava and Anuttara in Trika Metaphysics
Dear Antonio,
I don't doubt that the term pada refers to the 'foot' of the Rig-Vedic hymn as it still does in the metrics of later classical Sanskrit poetry. However, like its English equivalent, it probably also had the more concrete meaning of the appendage we stand on from the very beginning. The Rig-Veda already plays upon this poetic/ritual/metaphysical polysemy in enigmatic expressions like the 'footless' (apadvî) walking, etc., that Ananda Coomaraswamy has highlighted in his treatment of some of the chthonian elements in its mythology. The 'unborn foot' is also the cosmic pillar (the Atharvavedic skambha), the immeasurable form of the linga that Shiva assumes to confound Brahmâ and ViSNu. The transition to the 'Serpent of the Deep' (Ahir Budhnya) comes naturally in the light of the merging of the phallic linga with the rising kuNDalinî.
The short of it, as Kuiper so well
understood, is that the best way of penetrating the secrets of the Veda is to
start with Tantric esotericism...
best wishes,
Sunthar
P.S. Looks like LâT-Bhairava has succeeded
in (sacrificially?) killing several snakes (nâga-lingams?) with one
hell-of-a-club ;-)
[rest of this thread at Is the snake a phallic symbol? Don't ask Mr. Nâga-lingam!]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7889]
Sunthar wrote:
The Newars refer to the Bisket and Indra Jatra poles as yalasin, and the ancient name for Patan viz. Yala = Yûpagrama, along with the representation of the yûpa in accurate detail in contemporary sculpture, no doubt attests to the early implantation of Vedic sacrificial ideology from Licchavi times.
Hmm, are there any other survivals of the
Yupa ritual elsewhere (non- New Age)?
Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7898]
The first paper in this section, that by
Thomas McEvilley entitled "The Spinal Serpent," may at first appear
to be neither art historical nor archeological, but I am using McEvilley's own
use of the term archaeology that he introduced in his article "The
Archeology of Yoga" in 1981. His article in this volume can be seen as an
extension of his earlier article where he argues for yogic practices in the
Indus Valley culture (ca. 2800-1700 B.C.E.), using as evidence six seals
showing figures in mûlabandhâsana, a Hatha yoga posture used to activate the
kundalinî and that implies the existence of the three channels (nâdîs) of yogic
physiology (susumnâ, idâ, and pingala). In "The Spinal Serpent"
McEvilley points out, for the first time, the startling parallels between
"the Hindu doctrine of the kundalinî [and] Plato's doctrine in the
Timaeus." These correlations are so complete - even to the two subtle
channels that flank the spine, the need to retain the "soul-stuff" or
sperm in the head rather than expend it through ejaculation, and the
visualization of this power as a serpent - that McEvilley undertakes to search
for connections between
Robert L. Brown, "Introduction," The Roots of
Tantra (
Hello Paul,
If by "yûpa ritual" you mean Vedic
sacrifice, I have never seen one performed nor am I aware of it being practiced
anywhere in
Parallels may be see in the Dionysian cult, where the 'linga' likewise received blood-sacrifices, and we also have the May poles of Old Europe. We have argued in our paper, from Kuiper's work on Ancient Indian Cosmogony, the these New Year festivals 'dramatize' an inner 'shamanizing' experience that would have been universal, because rooted in the human 'physiology', without having to resort always to diffusion theories.
I'm curious to know what Greek specialists
of Plato would have to say on the 'Tantric' notations of Timaeus...?
regards,
Sunthar
[Rest of this thread at Ekapâda <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/1182> Bhairava, Ahir Budhnya and the 'Unborn' One-Footed 'Goat' (Aja) - should Hindus be taken at their Word?]
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7900]
Dear Sunthar
Thank-you and I agree with you that similarities may not always be because of cultural diffusion though we cannot also rule it out that easily. It will be useful to recall Jung's notion of Collective Unconscious from which emerge the archetypes and so forth. The Snake related to the Coiled Power may be such a symbolism - already there in the depths of all and which emerges in various forms.
You may be interested in the following verse of Pampaatti Sittar who has written quite a large treatise on this. I tend to place him around 12th cent AD. I have studied some verses of his and here I am reposting only one. I hope to upload the remaining verses soon.
Please ignore the verse in Tamil script.
Loga
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Snake
Dear Friends,
One of the most ubiquitous symbolic elements in
dreams and mythologies is the Snake. In the Access Tests such as Baum Test in
Agamic Psychology , this is also met with including the entirely non-natural
five-hooded variety. Its occurrence cuts across cultural religious and ethnic
differences. It is also an important object of worship in many cultures
especially the Indian and Chinese and their temples abound with various kinds
representations of snake. In alchemy too we come across this symbolism. In the
high level archetypal representations in Hinduism such as that of icons of Siva
and Vishnu we also see the snake in a variety of forms. In ancient Sumeria we
learn the Large Snake -- usumgal-- was associated with Mother Goddess worship
and there were temples especially for it. We should also note that while in
Among Tamil Siddhas who developed Depth Psychologies of some kind in the period from about the 11th cent to about 17th cent. there was one Pampatti Sittar, the Snake-charmer who has written a marvellous book of 129 verses touching on this theme. As an attempt to renew the Hermeneutic Semiotics of these Tamil Siddhas I am providing here the translations with notes of the last few verses from 112 to 129 which appear to summarise the whole book.
Loga
112.
[Tamil text deleted - SV]
aakaara mutalilee
paampataaka
aananta vayalilee
padam virittee
uukaara mutalilee
ottodungki
oodi vakaarattin
naakkai niiddic
siikaarang kidantoor
mantirattaic
sittap piradanaar
pootac ceyya
maakarap piRappaiyum
veer aRuttu
maaya pantang
kadanttomenRu aadaay paambee!
Dance Dear Snake, Dance !
That having arisen as the primordial snake
with the mantra aakaaram,
spreading the hood in the field that breeds
bliss;
And having withdrawn into the uukaaram mantra
with complete agreement with itself
And having extended the tongue
in the form of the mantra vakaaram
And that point being blessed by BEING Himself
,
the Snake Charmer who charms the desires of
the souls,
with a mantra where lies the Supreme
Illumination, the siikaaram
We have cut asunder the very roots of
repeated births and deaths
through transcending all the worldly snares.
Notes:
The Snake is actually the Coiled Power, the Kundalini, that which is the source of all motivational dynamics. It initially arises as the Libido, that which seeks worldy pleasures especially the sexual kind which is described here as the Ananta Vayal, the Field of Pleasure, an allusion to the sexual coitus that from ancient days was noted as similar to ploughing the filed. At this point the mantra that transmutes this blind libido into Id (to use a Freudian term) is the aakaram -type of mantra. But as one lives through this kind of life there emerges the uukaaram, that which impels the soul towards the Light of Metaphysical Illumination and hence away from just simply seeking pleasures after pleasures of the worldly type. There comes to be also agreement with it only because the desire for Metaphysical Illumination is STRONGER than that for worldly pleasures including the sexual.
At this point occurs the extending of the tongue, seeking after not worldy pleasures but deeper metaphysical expriences, plunging into metaphysical realms of the Mysterious and the Mystical, a psychodynamics intalled by the mantra vakaaram. And it is only at this point BEING seeing the soul is really earnest for true wisdom and is sufficiently ripe to be blessed with the mantra Siikaaraam, that which nourishes Sivanjaananam, tha Absolute Illumination, allows it emerge from the depths.
The Kundalini now transmuted into this enjoys the Sivanjanam and slowly the total destruction of Metaphysical IGNORANCE, that cast by the mantra of the makaaram-type and because of which it also conquers Historicality, being thrown into the cycle of repeated births and deaths, a tireless existential repetition.
(To continue)-1
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #7903]
Dr. K. Loganathan wrote:
We should also note that while in
Or maybe it can be said that in the former cultures the snake has both positive and negative aspects (mostly positive) while it is viewed almost entirely negatively in Semitic faiths.
Tiamat and the seraphim respectively are examples.
In Christian iconography though the serpentine aspects of the seraphim were almost completely excised.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
Lord GaNeZa caught red-handed in Hugh Heffner’s
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
[Abhinava msg #1207]
Date:
Dear Sathia,
One of the ‘puzzles’ that Alice Getty raises in
her book on the iconography of Lord GaNeza is why he is piously invoked at the
beginning of the Kaula rituals (at least in the manuscripts she has studied...)
only to be ceremoniously dismissed before we get to the ‘hard-core’ action. The
embracing Kangi-Ten couples (see post appended [above]) from
In my Ph.D. thesis, I
have posited that GaNeza is a semiotic ‘mediator’ in the polarization between
the pure Brahmâ and the impure Bhairava, which largely explains why, unlike
either of these opposed divinities, he is so popular across the whole spectrum
of the Hindu caste society, and has emigrated, with Buddhism, well beyond
India’s borders into other Asian countries. Indeed, there is nothing overtly
sexual in GaNeza and he is as brilliant and engaging a visualized conception of
the Hindu genius, and as ‘beautiful’ in his own way, as the mind-boggling
symmetries of [the ecstatically dancing statue of] Shiva-NaTarâja (as so well
described by Ananda Coomaraswamy). However, anyone who contemplates deeply
enough (and this is something that Mr. Nagalingam probably shouldn’t try if he
wants to preserve his ‘sanity’...) on the ‘lawful irregularities’ (crooked
trunk, single tusk, pot-belly, connoisseur of modakas [rounded sweetmeats], of the ‘exoteric’ deity—so well
enumerated in well-known kîrtanas [vocal compositions], like Muttuswamy DîkSitar’s Vâtâpi
GaNapatim, that typically open a concert of Carnatic
music)—will be rewarded for his/her persistence with an ‘esoteric’ insight into
the Tantric mysteries that are embodied more overtly in the figure of Bhairava.
This is precisely why GaNeza—also the embodiment, like the VidûSaka, of AUMkâra
(praNava-svarûpa)—is
such an amusing fellow who insinuates himself into the hearts of greedy (not
just Indian) kids even before they can say “No!”
The same triadic relation
may be recognized in Amerindian mythology, where the hilarious monkey (= the
clownish GaNeza) likewise mediates between the socialized human being subjected
to strict interdictions (Brahmâ) and the underground initiate, the bearer of
the secrets of culture, represented by the Jaguar (Bhairava). In many of these
myths (where, by the way, the incest-motif is not only explicit but
central...), it is the monkey that leads the ‘qualified’ human to the lair of
the Jaguar, who thereupon adopts the lost soul and transforms him into a
culture hero, who eventually returns to the tribe to share his
hard-won secrets. The qualification consists precisely in not laughing (hâsyâbhâsa) at the ape or at the (preliminary) antics of the Jaguar,
who would otherwise have devoured them. So I suspect that Paul Courtright and
the Orientalist ‘gurus’, led by Wendy, may not only not make the grade but also
end-up in GaNeza’s already full-stomach...
In short, my
understanding of GaNeza does not preclude the possibility of this ‘impotent
great-brahmin’ (mahâ-brâhmaNa) descending uninvited into the midst of a Tantric ‘orgy of
worship’ (cakra-pûjâ). After all, the vidûSaka makes a big show of not being able to stand women (he even
holds his nose because they stink!), but if you observe carefully all the strange
things he does and says with his (useless?) ‘crooked appendage’ (vakra-tuNDa), there
would be even more justification for submitting an online petition to
Attorney-General John Ashcroft (and his Christian Right?) to revoke his
green-card and send him back to
Best wishes,
Sunthar
P.S. I’d appreciate any further details you can provide
me (off list, of course!) on these images. I guess if you found them as
traumatizing as so many of the pious Hindus (Mr. Nagalingam?) on these lists,
you would have remembered all the graphic details...with slight distortions?
[rest of this thread at Sunthar V., On the ‘crookedness’ of the Vidûsaka]
Subject:
From: Sunthar Visuvalingam
Date:
I think Prof. John Yes, Holy (The One and Only), has
already largely answered your (typically Indian?) confusion on this matter...
enjoy,
Sunthar
[rest of this thread at Michael
Witzel, Re:
[RISA-L] The scholar's accountability]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam [Abhinava msg #1267 – order of thread reversed]
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8116]
In our scriptures we are introduced to 64 forms of Siva; for each of which there is a meaning and concept behind that form, as well as a puranic myth as to how they came to be. These are the traditional icons of Siva to be installed and worshipped in the temples and homes, not any other.
It is curious that none of these forms depict a penis, erect or flaccid. If 'regeneration', 'creation' and 'union' are such important themes, why, they would have been depicted in a majority of the icons of Siva. But that is not the case. NOT ONE depicts that(a penis)!
The same with the 32 traditional forms of Ganesha. NOT ONE shows Him with an erect or flaccid penis!
Anyone?
Regards all.
[response??? to O
you simpleton! This is your 'Harvard alumni' (= Ârya) svAbhinava - don't you
know the crookedness of his speech?]
Subject:
From: Ram Varmha
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8118]
Nagalingam,
I think I am correct in saying that in Hinduism we have the freedom to worship Gods and Goddesses in which ever form we 'see' them. There are no hard and fast rules to adhere to. This is why I think there are so many variations depicting the Hindu Gods/esses. For example, if some one, even a devout Hindu, wants to see the Shiva Lingam in a sexual , not in an Unclean way, but in a Mother-Father perspective, and as a sacred union of Shiva and Shakti, so be it. Personally, I do not have any problem with that. On the other hand, I am beginning to find the so called Indologist's foray into the Freudian, Jungian(?), Meta-Physical, Hermeneutic and other forms of explanations of Hinduism, either positively or negatively, rather tiresome. Perhaps, not being a Scholar on par with them, I may be at a disadvantage here. But, I find this almost fanatical urge by the Learned to translate the religion, piece-meal, and feed to the poor, ignorant Hindoo, so that he can finally say: "I see. Now I understand the true meaning of This or That! Thank you, very much, Oh Great One"!
However, it seems odd to me why there is such a concerted effort, at large, to delve only into the Hindu religion and come up with these gems of intellectual quotations.
I do not see many interpretations of the Bible,
Old/New, from similar Masters. What a field day they could have had, if they
were to visit the Garden of Eden of the The Old Testament? Was the Snake a
phallus symbol; was the apple the primordial testicle? Will they be able to
peer into the teachings of Christ and see unmentionable metaphors or is the
Mother and Child, suppressed Oedipus complex. Is the Pope, Polish! The problem
is that such topics are taboo in the West where most of these erudite
Indologists live, both Westerners and others.
Xtianity is part of Indology too, because there are Xtian Indians and variations of the Xtian religion, which are very Indian. It would be refreshing to read a Freudian dip at Xtianity of India, by one of the Indologists. Or does Indology mean only Hindu-ology; if so why not spell it that way?
And, what of Islam? Are there things to dig up in there? But, wait a minute. After scaring the poor Rushdie to death over his boring but innocent Satanic Verses who would dare to write such fancy inner meanings and innuendoes of that religion? I admit that I will be shivering in my boots before writing or saying any thing about "them". Who knows, I may inadvertently send a young man to the company of a bevy of beautiful damsels in heaven and have my garage and house blown up in the process!
But, its fair game, amongst these Indologists, to become philosophical and psychological when it comes to Hinduism. I presume this is a new field in the academic circles now, and many a PhD treatise hangs on the single tusk of Ganesha. Which brings me to these so called symbolisms. Any representation with a single item is a phallus; anything with two items are breasts! If Picasso had got into Hinduism, his Minotaur would have looked like a calf! Regards,
Ram
Subject:
From: Anthony Appleyard
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8119]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote (Subject: Forms of Siva):-
> In our scriptures we are introduced to 64 forms of Siva; ...
> It is curious that none of these forms depict a penis,
Perhaps in some cases the God or Goddess is assumed to be wearing a close-fitting garment which hides his/her genitalia.
And there are likely some people, as among many cultures, who do not want to see realistic pictures of genitalia.
[Anthony Appleyard]
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8120]
Dear Pathma
While I agree that at the higher levels and which is the level we should aspire to be in, BEING is understood as Father-Mother complex, the Ammai-Appar as described by Appar himself, Siva is also known as Kameshvaran and Uma as Kameshvari, Kaamadci etc. Sexuality is there as part of the psychodynamics of all creatures. The Saiva philosophers and saints did not recoil from seeing that sexuality is also part of the aruL or blessings of BEING. If for Appar and many other Saiva philosophers the sexual dimensions of creature nature is also a divine blessing, I don't know why we should be reluctant to admit and read the meanings of such depictions. I have a book here on early Church architecture which is also full of depictions of nude females sexual unions and so forth.
We have the following famous verses from Tiruvuntiyar, the earliest text in MeykaNda Sastras and probably belonging to the 11th cent. AD.
>>>>>>>> 33.
[Tamil text deleted – SV]
peRRa siRRinpamee peerinbamaay angkee
muRRa varum parisu untiipaRa
muLaiyaathu maayai enRu untiipaRa
Arise and push ahead knowing that the little sexual pleasures enjoyed in ordinary life slowly become great pleasures in life (as the metaphysical journey is continued without any fear) and because of which there will NOT arise any delusions in the mind (that would breed distress).
muRRa varum parisu: the reward that becomes available as a gift: the fearless and Promothean excursions into the metaphysical DEPTHS without holding back oneself inventing reasons for justifying it, has its own rewards. The TRUTH attained in this adventure breeds immense happiness along with reaching a state of Being in Truth and only in Truth that disallows the emergence of illusions and delutions.
34.
[Tamil text deleted – SV]
peerimbam aana piramak kizattiyoodu
oorinabattu uLLaan enRu untiipaRa
unnaiyee aaNdaan enRu untiipaRa
Arise and move ahead knowing that such individuals of immense metaphysical courage ultimately end up being-one-with the WOMAN (within self) of immeasurable bliss and because of which they begin to rule you even (by standing as the right model)
pimak kizatti: the supremely radiant Sakti that always remains in Deepest Corner of everyone's self is attainable only for those who venture into the Depths without any fear of losing the identities, cultural foundations etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
These verses make it clear that the sexual nature of man, the desires for SiRRinbam, should be transmuted into Divine Bliss and this by graduating from uniting with an ordnary woman to uniting with the Brahma Kizatti, the Sakti within as Paraaparai. In the TukaLaRu Poota KaddaLai ( 14th cent AD) we have descriptions of such spiritual experiences in great detail
This is also what we get from the Metaphysical Gynecology of Tirumular. He says there that sex must enjoyed but with LOVE and with the breathing raised to the Suzi Munai Nadi in order not only to overcome sexuality but also transmute it into Universal LOVE. The Cuzi Munai Nadi, as you are aware, is the Nadi where both Natam and Bindu are co-present and which means it is a metaphysical journey where both Siva and Sakti are union or where the SivaliGkam is present.
While you are right in emphasizing the spiritual
dimensions of the sacred and as the essential meanings of the Icons, we should
not also forget that Saivism is built upon Natural Metaphysics, an
understanding of the NATURAL and from there accessing the depths where the
truly spiritual are available. Within the normal sexual union of creatures is
available the
Now another episode from Kanta PuraNam should also help. When Siva becomes the Maha Yogi to please the rishies and avoids Uma, the whole world collapses and even the Devas are captured by the Auras. So they not only implore Siva to unite with Uma but also force Manmatan, the Indian Cupid to aim at Siva the flowers that would arouse sexual desires in Him. However Siva BEING the TaRparan, no one can induce anything in Him, He has to WILL it by Himself. After burning Manmatan, He condescends to marry Parvati and stay united with Her and at which point the sexual dynamics come into being in the world to the great joys of all the living creatures.
This episode with underlies the birth of Muruka, the Kumara Sambava, also clears declares that the ordinary sexual desires are implanted by BEING for which purposes the assumes the form of Candrasekaran and stays in LOVE with Parvati.
The problem with the Western psychologists, as far as I can see, is that they see the normal sexuality but do not see the TRANSMUTATION of the same into Universal LOVE and which is related to Moksa. The whole of Western culture including the psychoanalysis of Freud and Jung do not have have the notion of Moksa and their perceptions are partially blind - the visions of the one-eyed.
I also must mention that Advaita Vedanta and which has crept into even Saiva thinking, dismisses the natural as completly irrelevant or atleast something that can be immesnely disturbing and hence something that should be killed with vaikragiya and so forth. This is again another kind of blindness, a self-induced blindness.
Loga
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8121]
Dear Anthony
I think you are right but only partially. The
close-fitting garments which only suggest genitalia but do not depict them
explicitly is only part of the story. There is a fundamental difference in ART
as approached in
The Icons are Double-Texts, representations in which the Deep Structure is made also present within the Surface Structure and because of which there are transformations of the natural itself. For example in Greek sculptures the veins of the muscular arms are shown very clearly while in Indian sculptures including in the Buddhist sculptures of Ghandara school where there was Greek influence, we do not find this. The muscular contortions are NOT depicted but instead we have only smooth contours in that also the spiritual dimensions of Santhi and so forth. The Inner World of spiritual depths are made VISIBLE through the flesh with such transmutations.
The same happens when the genitalia are covered up and their presence is only indicated but NOT shown in the best of Icons. The physical sexuality is backgrounded in order to show LOVE ( may still be sexual) between the deities. When in some sculptures Civa gazes with LOVE at Uma, what we have is LOVE and in which sexuality is transmuted to spirituality.
This is also the difference between the Kamattup Paal of TiruvaLLuvar and the Kama Sutra or Kokkoha Sastras which deal with the acrobatics of coitus. In KuRal what we have is LOVE with sexual desires not suppressed but backgrounded, made less important than Love.
I think this hermeneutic notion that Indian sculptures are Double-Texts while the Western is simply the mono-texts that depicts only the physical, may be the real difference between the two cultures and because of which there are many misunderstanding.
I shall develop this theme later.
Loga
Subject:
From: Anthony Appleyard [Abhinava msg #1272 – order of thread reversed]
To: akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote (Subject: Forms of Siva):-
> > In our scriptures we are introduced to 64 forms of Siva; ... > > It is curious that none of these forms depict a penis, > > Perhaps in some cases the God or Goddess is assumed to be wearing a > close-fitting garment which hides his/her genitalia. > > And there are likely some people, as among many cultures, who do not > want to see realistic pictures of genitalia. > >
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8123]
Ram Varmha wrote:
Nagalingam, > I think I am correct in saying that in Hinduism we have the freedom to > worship Gods and Goddesses in which ever form we 'see' them. There are no > hard and fast rules to adhere to. This is why I think there are so many > variations depicting the Hindu Gods/esses. For example, if some one, even a > devout Hindu, wants to see the Shiva Lingam in a sexual , not in an Unclean > way, but in a Mother-Father perspective, and as a sacred union of Shiva and > Shakti, so be it. Personally, I do not have any problem with that.
Thank you Ram.
There is freedom in Hinduism, But ONLY within the precincts of the shastras. The freedom is not absolute. Beyond the parameters of the shastras is fine too, but it is not Hinduism, not shastrically approved.
I too have no problem with that, except that I dislike when there is an attempt to portray non shrastric icons and its psychoanalytic meanings as Hinduism. Why not call it something else, Phallicism! Anything, but Hinduism.
What I am trying to convey to members in this forum is that to say something is Hinduism, persons must quote a reference from the scriptures. If not, it is not Hinduism. On contentious matters like, say, phallic meanings of the sivalinga, one must quote only the veda or agama. Abinavagupta, Appar, Arthur Avalon, Puranas, even Tirumular, etc is not enough for contentious issues. After all, Timurular and Vyasa were commentators of the Vedas and Agamas.
The reason I keep asking this is because I am sure there is no such references in the vedas and agamas to the sivalinga as "also a phallic symbol". If this is true, then all the writings by the scholars on this subject is eminently false. If it was so evident in the scruti, Vyasa, Tirumular, Shankara, Vivekanada, Aurobindo and all the rest would have commented extensively on it, this being so important an issue! But that is not the case.
On so important an issue, we are perplexed that the Upanishads are absolutely silent on the linga being a phallus symbol. No mention at all! Surely the celebrated and comprehensive Rudram would have mentioned it, but no, its not there too. 20,000 verses in the Thrirumurais and not one says clearly that the linga is a phallic icon. Not one reference to this too in the 30 volume works of Vivekananda. Neither in Aurobindo's works or Shankara's writings. No mention at all in the 7 Hindu schools of thought. Absolutely absent in Balinese Hinduism - no icons of worship in this sect of Hinduism! Amazing how everyone missed it! And yet the modern scholars insist its there!
There are references to natam and bindu, ida and pingala, as well as the shushumna BUT these are psychic forces present in our astral and mental bodies that automatically rise as we evolve spiritually and merge in the ajna and sahasra chakras. What has this merging got to do with 'union of the male and female forces', or copulation? Why see it this way? Why dont we see it just as psychic currents, nothing more and stop right there?
It is not that i have something against phallic worship or ashamed by it. Not at all. I am happy we have Ellora and the Kama Sutra, but my contention is there is no phallic worship mention in the scriptures. Let us not try and imagine something that is not there.
> On the other hand, I am beginning to find the so called Indologist's foray > into the Freudian, Jungian (?), Meta-Physical, Hermeneutic and other forms of > explanations of Hinduism, either positively or negatively, rather tiresome. > Perhaps, not being a Scholar on par with them, I may be at a disadvantage > here. But, I find this almost fanatical urge by the Learned to translate the > religion, piece-meal, and feed to the poor, ignorant Hindoo, so that he can > finally say: "I see. Now I understand the true meaning of This or That! Thank > you, very much, Oh Great One"!
Yes, I too am tiring of it. In fact, these scholarly discussions are not contributing At All to increased knowledge of our scriptures, and increased devotion, which would be the purpose of a forum. On the contrary, it contributes to skepticism and confounds clarity.
I would go further to say that these approaches to understanding our scriptures actually misleads and takes one down the wrong path, to dead ends. Hinduism, its principles, practices and icons cannot be understood merely by scholarly analysis! If this is true, the mere attempt misleads.
Clearly we have been told time and again that the right path to understanding Hindu principles is one of worship, devotion and treading the path of the saints, not scholarly debates, deconstructions or psychoanalysis. Vivekananda and Aurobindo were sages and scholars too, and theirs would be the path to walk.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: S. Sathia
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8125]
Dear Pathma,
In reading your note below, it appears to me that you would not accept anything other than the sastras. That is fine, if that is the position you wish to take. But it is only a position that one takes.
There are absolutely no authorities on Hinduism, not even Sastras. For that matter, there is no "official and accepted final list of Sasthras": there can be no absolute definition of what is Hinduism, either. People like Ramana Maharishi sought the path of God not because of beckoning by Sastra.
I see a danger in insisting on non-acceptance of anything other than Sasthras. The danger is that it kills future thoughts and development. It ties us to the past. Basically it sends us backward looking rather than forward looking. I think that runs contrary to Hindu spirit. I see some conditioning in your words by Abrahamic religions that tie themselves to books.
Knowledge by its very nature, cannot be confined to the written word. That is why we have sculptures, drama, temples, art, music, dance and meditation etc, in Hinduism that cannot be described adequately by writing. Quite often the written word has a stifling effect too although it is a celebrated form of communication.
Sastras are only aids. That is all. They are not determinants. Sastras can come and go and new ones can be written. There is freedom in Hinduism for this. Exercise this freedom and feel the liberating experience that comes within.
Imposing constraints where there aren't any, is a way of shooting ourselves in our foot.
Regards,
Sathia
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8126]
Hello Sunthar,
Thank you, but these unkindly insinuate that scholars can write and publish anything they like, and that the rest of us non scholars are ignorant. Wrong on both counts.
But it would help if you answer by questions;
1. Does any of the 64 forms of Shiva depict an erect or limp phallus, yes or no?
2. Does any of the 32 forms of Ganesha depict an erect or limp phallus, yes or no?
3. Is the cover photo on Courtright's book an icon of Ganesha approved by the scriptures, yes or no?
4. Is there any reference in the Vedas and agamas that clearly tells that the linga 'is a symbol of Siva's penis, or 'an icon of copulation', yes or no?
Thank you.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8131]
You haven’t heard of Siva in ûrdhva-linga posture?
Here's an example:
http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/shiva_dual.jpg
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
Linga technicalities from
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8132]
http://www.kh.refer.org/cbodg_ct/tur/rel/lingap.gif
Subject:
From: Roberta Moretti
[Abhinava msg #1277]
Date:
Dear Doctors and Profs.,
My name is Roberta and I am not expert but I am
very much interested on Indian philosophy, in particular Shaivism. Is it any
possibility that the images are depicted as 'castrated' because there is a
caracter hermaphroditism in them, as a conicidentia
oppositorum between male and female?
Roberta
[response to Loga's post at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Abhinavagupta/message/1272]
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan [Abhinava msg #1278]
Date:
Dear Roberta
I am glad to note your interest in Saivism perhaps
the oldest component that goes by the name of Hinduism. I will just
mention here that I have given ample evidences to show the presence of Saivism
in Sumerian literature. I have also located the worship of Mother Goddess and
Vishnu in Sumerian times itself where they also come along with
You can read about Dravidian gods in Sumeria and related studies at the following address:
http://arutkural.tripod.com/sumstudies/hin-sum-dra.html
coincidentia oppositorum
Now coming to your question, let me first of all admit that I don’t understand ‘hermophroditism” though I can make some sense of the Latin ‘coincidentia oppositorum’, the coincidence or simultaneous presence of both Male and Female and which is the same as Natam and Bindu (the Taoist Yin & Yang, Jungian Anima & Animus etc)
Now as far as I know, this will be true of Siva as
Ammai-Appar, a Father-Mother complex and which is a LIMITING condition. When
the soul attains this state, it also is FREE of Sexuality and where the earlier
sexual urges are transmuted into LOVE that results in genuine Bakti. As I have
already explained the sexual urges are Natam-hunger of the females and
Bindu-hunger of males and all because Siva in His Dance of creations introduces
these differences in order to create the males and females of all species. This
is the difference of the dance of Siva in Citambaram and
This differential presence of Siva and Sakti or Natam and Bindu is noted even with Brahma and ViSNu for Brahma is said to keep KalaivaaNi, His female half on his tongue while VishNu, His female half, Laksmi on his chest. It is only Siva who keeps Uma, His female as His equal half and which in metaphysical terms means Siva where Sakti is and Sakti where Siva is. This is a very common understanding among the Saivas and which they put as “saktiyinRi civamillai, civaminRi saktiyinRi civamillai” etc. Thus this may be “coincidentia oppositorum”
Castration
I think this term is very inappropriate to describe the iconic features where there is absence of depictions of the genitalia. For as I have said there is NO CASTERATION at all but only TRANSMUTATION of sex into LOVE. I think the Westerners (including here the nonTamil Hindus) do not seem to appreciate the enormous importance of Universal LOVE that Saivism extols as one of the highest achievements of metaphysical life, the transmutation of SiRRinbam, the sexual kinds of pleasures into Peerinbam, the Divine and Supreme Bliss. Now this is NOT to deny the presence of explicit sexuality and its castration (even metaphysical systems to produce ‘eunuchs”.) The Tantrism that is preoccupied with the sexual nature of man and seeks to overcome it with indulgence in it is called the Vâmâcâra Maarkkam [Tamil = Sanskrit mârga – SV] and which is NOT Tamil Saivism or even VaishNavism. This Vamacara may be however psychoanalytically interesting for it may be related to sex-related abnormal behavior and hence a Maarkkam more as psychotherapeutic or psychiatric in nature than anything else.
Let me repeat that an Icon is a Double-Text where through surface features it discloses the Deep Structure and which is spiritual. A typical Hindu in seeing any one of the Icons, worships them by intuiting the Divine Presence there. The icon carved out of stone or cast with metal, SHOWS the divine if you are willing to see and experience the presence of BEING in a way. Of course you can choose to see stone and note that it is some kind of granite or the metal and say it is essentially bronze with a certain percentage of gold and so forth. Nothing wrong with this but when you persists that this is all to it, then you are a materialist and remain BLIND to the divine essence which is made available there.
So it depends on your SEEING and when the icon is designed to make people see the divine through the natural, the genitalia are COVERED UP juts to show that it is already transcended, no more of any concern and so forth. Such a transcendence of sexual concerns is certainly NOT castration.
Loga
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8134]
Hello Dr. Loga,
We all have been exposed to the stories of Muruga with Valli and Devayanai, to the love verses in the Tirukural and the puranic myths where physical love is alluded to. I agree with what you say about transmuting physical love and ordinary love of spouse into Love of God.
Also, I not victorian in my views and neither do I recoil from discussing love and sex. I am an afficionado even. :) This is not my area of contention. I am not vedic influenced too though I am aware of the challenges of the 'vedic victorian' influences against the more 'liberal' southern/Tamil culture.
All of life is an experience to know god and this 'all of life' includes sex, and lust and romance - the natural metaphysics. This is not my area of contention.
My point is that we seemed to have pushed far beyond the parameters provided in scriptures, and now see everything from the point of view of Jung/Freud sex psychoanalysis. I think we, the scholars, have gone too far. I dont think this is what the scriptures and saints meant. The linga as phallus worship, and Ganesha's trunk as a flaccid phallus is just going too far, and in this sense, we are not in accordance with scriptures.
Sex is no more an animal function than urinating, defeacating, eating and sleeping. All of this is required for perpetuating the race. Sex should not be given more attention than these other animal functions. Because everyone is familiar with love and sex, it is alluded to in sastras SO AS TO draw attention to Love of God and transmute love, sex and all other human endeavours towards God. This you agree.
But when we go beyond this and see icons as representation of sex and its 'centrality' then we have a problem, a major misunderstanding. Because ultimately, sex is an obstacle and the antithesis of Love of God. Surely with this understanding we can see that the linga CANNOT be an icon of the phallus.
Scholars need to get back on track, perhaps with a dose of devotion. With just a bit of bhakti - love of god, love of fellow human beings, willingness to go some good for no return - all notions of sex will just disappear.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8135]
Thank you Sathia,
I agree that we should be flexible and more open in order not to be 'closed'. But there are times when we need to be shastrically correct.
This would be one such time, especially when Hinduism is transcending boundaries and languages, and everyone have their own notions of Hinduism, and just about anything and everything is alluded to as Hinduism. Here we have to say, 'just hold on there'!
The very fact that other religions exists shows that Hinduism is not all encompassing. We dont accept Judaic beliefs, or Christian, or Islamic or Buddhist. This shows in the negative the parameters of Hinduism. There ARE limits to Hinduism!
In the absence of gurus, we rely on scriptures to guide us. On contentious issues we can only turn to the sastras, thus my insistence on shastric references. I just wish to show everyone (in these issues) that we have exceeded the boundaries of Hinduism, and it cannot any longer be considered 'Hindu'.
Have you noticed that when shastric references are called for, the forum becomes awfully quiet except for long essays of comparative studies? What does it tell you? Because in my readings in 30 years I know its not there. Sometimes readings the various essays by scholars is like been insisted upon that the 'king is wearing fine invisible clothes'.
It is in these areas that, not imposing constraints where certainly there are, is a way of shooting ourselves in the foot.
Kind Regards.
Pathma
Subject:
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8136]
Dear Pathma,
I agree with most of what you say in that the Tantric tradition recognizes the sexuality of all creatures and that the Tantrism such as that of Tirumular Appar and so forth emphasizes the TRANSMUTATION of sexuality into Universal Love. I think this is where we disagree with the Western psychoanalytic approach to the problem of sexuality and the notion of unconscious. While admitting that such psychoanalytic approaches may serve to uncover areas of Saivite thinking that have become forgotten or sneered at, we are also duty bound to EXPLAIN how the whole matter is understood and explained by the Saivites. This is where, I believe, Agamic Psychology may come in handy.
These are academic challenges and should be met with as such. There are gross inadequacies not only in the Western psychological traditions but also the whole of philosophies. We have to study both and EXPLAIN where the similarities and differences lie. There must be discourses between both parties so that a new understanding is given birth to.
Taking the sastras as piramaaNas will not do. Having studied the sastras we are duty bound to expound them in a rational manner so that even the Western philosophers acknowledge the relevance and truth of what we say. Our common concern must be TRUTH-EXPERIENCES and not simply sastra-knowledge. If you quote one sastra they can quote another and the debate can go on endlessly without reaching any definite conclusions.
One of the things that I am at pains to explain is that the bulk of Tamil Saivite thinking is in fact Hermeneutic Scientific and hence though scientific but not exactly in the same sense as the positive sciences of the West.
I also feel that the Saivites have lost grip of this in the recent past where they have become more vedantic than siddhantic. So I feel there is also a need to re-educate ourselves about all these by returning to the original texts and re-studythem paying close attention to the MEANINGS already there.
I think the whole world is unaware of the essences
of Tantrism such as that of Tirumular and all because there has been more
attention to Vedanta tradition and all perhaps part of Aryanization of
Hinduism. This is also the reason for the mental block towards acknowledging
the Sumero-Dravidian ( and perhaps also the
I am doing whatever I can and only wish more scholars also begin more and more of such studies.
We have to equip ourselves with a good knowledge of Western psychological and philosophical traditions to have a dialogue with them that is meaningful.
Now against this tell me how many Saiva Atheenams are concerned with such studies? Towards the close of 19th and in the work of Somasundara Nayakkar there was such a move and but it fizzled out in the wake of Dravidian movement.
Loga
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8137]
Thank you for the response,
Urdhvalinga means the 'rising linga'. It alludes to Siva appearing as a towering flame before Brahma and Vishnu. Usually the linga is shown as a standing Siva embedded on the side of a linga, sometimes with Brahma and Vishnu at His feet and head.
Your link is an unusual one, though its not unusual for sculptors to pronounce the features of a God in art; here the head, arms and groin seems to be pronounced probably inferring virility or greatness. Also, I am not sure if this is a murthi for worship. Not all murthis are installed for worship. Some are only decorative pieces and such pieces may divert from shastric injunctions. Only shastrically compliant murthis are installed and worshipped in the sanctum.
But it certainly is not an indication of phallus worship or phallic origins. I just don’t see it.
Thanks and Kind Regards
Pathma
Subject:
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8145]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
> But it certainly is not an indication of phallus worship or phallic origins. I just don’t see it.
You just don't want to see it.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: S. Sathia
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8139]
Pathma wrote:
> The very fact that other religions exists shows that Hinduism is not > all encompassing. We don’t accept Judaic beliefs, or Christian, or > Islamic or Buddhist. This shows in the negative the parameters of > Hinduism. There ARE limits to Hinduism!
There are limits to everything in the world, even to the physical laws. No one can argue with a truism like that.
It is not a question of whether Hinduism is all encompassing either. The question is simply, what is the truth. If Hinduism consists of falsehoods, then we should identify them and exclude them. We have the freedom to do so instead of dogmatically clinging on to the past.
Religions exists for various reasons, and not just because one is good and the other is better, or that one is all encompassing and the other is not. During the course of history, numerous religions came into existence and most perished leaving the few for us to crack our heads.
> In the absence of gurus, we rely on scriptures to guide us. On > contentious issues we can only turn to the sastras, thus my > insistence on shastric references. I just wish to show everyone (in > these issues) that we have exceeded the boundaries of Hinduism, and it > cannot any longer be considered 'Hindu'.
Knowledge comes from various sources. Can we leave it at that? Hinduism is truth seeking. That is all there is to it. You are welcome to demonstrate what are the boundaries of Hinduism, so that all of can understand as well.
> Have you noticed that when shastric references are called for, the > forum becomes awfully quiet except for long essays of comparative > studies? What does it tell you? Because in my readings in 30 years I > know its not there. Sometimes readings the various essays by scholars > is like been insisted upon that the 'king is wearing fine invisible > clothes'.
The forum becomes "awfully quiet" for various reasons too. Not because the sasthras are incomplete or that the forum members do not know enough. In any forum it is normal for only a few to write, and that too not always, leaving the vast majority to be readers: No, highly selective readers, I should say.
Regards,
Sathia
Subject:
From: Ram Varmha
Date: Thu
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8140]
Dear Mr. Nagalingam,
I am reminded of what some one once said:
"There are as many types of Hinduism as there are Hindus in this
world"! Hinduism is an extremely complicated religion and there are so
many, many ideas and concepts in its broader religious precincts, that we
cannot fully understand or comprehend. There are even contradictory statements
in the Hindu religious scriptures. All this gives a Hindu the freedom to
worship hisher gods/esses the way heshe likes. There is a Devi temple in
Kodungalur,
It is also said that these songs were sung to drive away the prudish Buddhists and Jains, who had establishments in the vicinity of the temple, in the past.
I am attaching a few inserts from the Puranas. Please give us your interpretations of these stories from the Puranas, regarding the worship of Siva-Linga. (Note: This has nothing to do with Courtright like nonsense).
http://members.iquest.net/~vepachedu/lingpurana.htm
Vamana Purana
When naked Lord Shiva was wandering in the Daruvanam forest, the wives of sages lost self control for Lord Shiva was the most beautiful and attractive man and they at once were seduced by the Lord. The sages who failed to recognize the Lord thought he was an ordinary immortal and cursed him: May the Lingam (penis) of this man fall to the ground! That instant the Lingam of Shiva fell to the ground, and the God immediately disappeared. The Lingam, as it fell, penetrated through the earth to the lower worlds and increased in height until it towered above the heavens. The earth quaked, all things movable and immovable agitated. Brahma and Vishnu then decided to find the ends of the great Lingam, while Vishnu mounted on Garuda descended down and Brahma on his lotus ascended the heavens. They returned to where they started unable to find the ends of the great Lingam, and with great reverence and praise they requested Lord Shiva to resume his Lingam. Lord Shiva thus propitiated appeared and said: If gods and men will worship, I will resume it. To this proposal Brahma and Vishnu and all other Gods agreed and since then the Lingam is worshipped by all.
Shiva Purana
On falling in consequence of the sages’ curse, the Lingam became like fire, and caused a conflagration wherever it penetrated; the three worlds were distressed, and as neither Gods nor sages could find rest, they hastened for protection to Brahma. Having heard them relate all that happened, Brahma replied, “After having committed knowingly a reprehensible act, why say that it was done unknowingly? Every one shall reap the fruit of his good or bad actions, and the Lingam therefore shall not cease to distress the worlds until the God resumes it. Propitiate by adoration the mountain-born Goddess, and she will assume the form of Yoni (vagina) and receive the Lingam, by which means only it can be rendered innocuous. After obtaining the consent of Parvati, form a vessel of eight kinds of leaves, place in it boiled rice and sacred plants, having it filled with holy water, consecrate with proper prayers and invocations, and with water repeating at the same time suitable prayers, sprinkle the Lingam. After Parvati receives the Lingam in her Yoni, you erect and consecrate the form of Lingam in the Yoni. By worshipping it with offerings of flowers, perfumes and such things, by kindling lamps before it, and by singing music propitiate Maheswara and he will forgive you.” As per Brahma’s instructions, the Gods and sages sought the assistance of Parvati. Parvati received in her Yoni the Lingam and appeased its consuming fire. In commemoration of this event the worship of Lingam was instituted.
Lainga Purana
Brahma said to angels, “When I sprang into existence, I
beheld the mighty Narayana reposing on the abyss of waters, and, being under
the influence of delusion, awakened him with my hand and addressed him: ‘who
art thou that thus slumberest on this terrible ocean?’ Hari awoke dispelling
sleep from his lotus eyes, looked upon me and then arising said, ‘Welcome,
welcome O Pitamaha, my dear son!’ On hearing the first of the Gods speak, I
confined within the bonds of the quality of impurity, replied: why dost thou
say, my dear son? For know me to be eternal god, the universal spirit, the
creator, the preserver and the destroyer of the three worlds.’ He immediately answered,
“Hear the truth, Oh four faced! And learn that it is I who am the creator, the
preserver, and the destroyer, how canst thou forget Narayana the self-existent
and eternal Being?’ hence arose terrible combat amidst the waters of the
deluge, where to appease the contest and recall us to our senses, appeared a
Lingam blazing like a thousand suns. Bewildered by its radiant beams, Hari thus
said to me lost in amazement, ‘I will proceed downwards in order to ascertain
the termination of this wondrous column of fire, do thou, O lord, proceed
upwards and seek for its top.’ Having thus spoken he assumed the form of a
boar, and I that of a swan, and we both proceeded in our search for four
thousand years, but being unable to ascertain its termination, we then returned
back wearied and disappointed. Thus still under influence of delusion, we
prostrated ourselves before the Lingam, and were reflecting on what it could
be. Then we heard a voice saying
Scanda Purana
and Visva-Sara-Prakasha
One day naked Mahadeva with a club in his hand chanced to
pass by near a place where several sages were performing their devotions.
Mahadeva laughed at them, insulted and provoked them with gestures and signs.
The sages cursed him and his Lingam or Phallus fell to the ground. Mahadeva in
this state of mutilation traveled over the world bewailing his misfortune and
his consort Parvati ran after him singing mournful songs. (In Greek mythology
this is called wanderings of Demeter and lamentations of Bacchus) The world
thus stopped procreation and came to a standstill. Gods and men searched for
the sacred Lingam and found it grown to an immense size. They cut it with
hatchets into thirty-one pieces that became perfect Lingams. The Gods left
twenty-one on earth and took nine to heaven and removed one to netherworld. Shaivites
insits that Kaba is one of the twenty-one places on earth. Arabian authors
opine that Lingas were worshipped all over
http://www.namaste.it/kundalini/kundalini_eng/lingam.html
Regards, Ram
Subject:
Fw: [agamicpsychology] castration complex
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8164]
----- Original Message -----
Subject:
[agamicpsychology] castration complex
From: "gandhibabu" <suha_babu@y...>
To: <agamicpsychology@yahoogroups.com>
Sent:
Dear friends,
Freudian psychoanalysis describes castration complex in the phallic stage (3-5 years).THE CHILD STRIVES FOR MATERNAL AFFECTION AND faces FATHER figure as an impediment to that progress. Child develops anxiety about father. over the growth it conquers this complex and becomes matured to face both as equals. I do not know whether vivid details about "VINDHU" in the sadhasiva agama is about this complex. Nevertheless sakthi-siva dualism is very much akin to Freudian triangular relationship of child-mother-father relations. Often saiva siddhantha coincides with Freudian contexts more than the Jungian model of collective unconscious and mythology-dream relationships. Castrated images of idols may viewed in this angle also.
GANDHIBABU
CHITAMBARAM
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8165]
Aha! I think we have a breakthrough here Dr. Loga. We are almost in agreement in most matters. We agree that there is an allusion to love and sex in Hindu texts but immediately that is encouraged to be transmuted to love of god. And that this allusion to love and sex is what has given rise to seeing Hindu icons in sexual terms.
I am sure you are already aware Dr. Loga that there are differences between Tantriism of Tirumular and that of the Shakta tantras. In Tirumular's tantras there is only a brief and slight allusion to love and sex, barely touching the subject, whereas in the shakta tantras it is dealt with explicitly at times, in verses and in icons. I won’t be surprised if any icons are found depicting erect or limp phallus, like Courtright's Ganesha, but I would bet it was inspired by Shakta tantrics, and not Saivism. Today scholars dont make this differenciation but sweepingly allude it to Saivism and Hinduism.
Medieval saivite sects like the pasupatas, kapalikas and kalamukhas used to mix and follow both saivite and sakta tantras and even practised some sexual rituals. This may be another reason that scholars see sex in saivism. These extreme sects are now defunct and do not exist, probably due to their deviationist practices. Here again an indication that deviating from scriptural injunctions leads to a short lifespan. It is for this reason too we need to maintain a separateness between saiva and sakta texts. It is for this reason too that I ask references from saivite texts only, for I know its not there, but may be there in sakta texts. I am right and you know too I am right.
Meanwhile if there are no replies to my objective questionnaire listed in the post below, we can quite rightly conclude that there is NO authorised phallicism in Saivism.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/8126
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8166
– text corrected as per msg #8167]
Hello Ram,
Certainly most temples and cultures in Hinduism
have their own peculiarities which gives its own identity. There are hundreds
of such cultural and artistic peculiarities. These peculiarities may not be
shastrically approved but tolerated as this is the genius and flexibility of
Hinduism. There is a temple here in Telok Bahang,
I commented on the puranas you mentioned in an earlier post, as below:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabaratam/message/7673
Puranas are
retelling of Vedas in mythical stories. Its an art form. Many cultures had
similar art forms. This was the best way at mass education of religion in the
past. [These events ever did NOT take place though at any point in time and
space. – corrected text] These stories cannot be
taken at face value, but we try and discern the principles and values the
purana is trying to convey. Several different levels of meanings can be gleamed
from just one puranic story, as you can see from my comments in the above link.
In addition to my comments in the link, the puranic stories that you mentioned reveals the following;
1. establishes the superiority of Siva
2. establishes the worship of Sivalinga,
3. alludes to Siva as the creative power,
4. the methods of worshipping the linga is briefly mentioned (and expanded in the agamas)
5. Shakti worship is given a place in Saivism (as the pedestal for the linga),
6. clearly states that the yoni is just a pedestal for the linga, (clinching evidence!)
7. it is the linga that is to be worshipped, not the pedestal, thereby giving an inferior position to Shakti by allusion,
8. the law of karma is restated,
9. mentions clearly that the Lord may take away all possessions and ego (sages' wives), and we curse and lament when we lose something or don’t get something,
10. that Siva is most attractive and attracts everyone to Him; wives, humans and gods, and that this attraction is what we call evolving by working out our karmas, (by losing our belongings and especially our ego)
11. alludes that it is the power of god in ordinary mortals that makes us lose our belongings and hence catalyses the process of spiritual evolution (we just don’t see the power of god in ordinary mortals that causes us distress),
12. alludes that non worship of the linga brings about destruction,
13. that the linga is to be worshipped in all the three worlds by all beings; men, devas and gods,
14. that it was Siva Himself that established His worship, not chosen by men, nor an evolutionary practice but an abrupt introduction in Hinduism,
15. that it is futile to search for Him, rather one should just surrender and worship Him,
16. and that peace can only reign in all the three worlds if the linga is worshipped.
These are the Vedic truths to be learnt, now retold here in the puranas. If we go back now to the Vedas, we see clearly that the same truths have been told there, right from the rig, if only we see it (unlike Wendy O Flaherty, Aiyangar and other Indologists who don’t see Siva in the Rig except for a few passages). It is for this reason that I personally hold that it’s Saivism all over the Vedas and it’s just as important to us as the agamas and thirumurais.
Now instead of seeing these truths in the purana stories, it is unfortunate that scholars link these linga stories to phallic worship (although there is an allusion here), and see the linga as a phallus. If they have any doubts, they should go back to the Vedas and see if there is phallic worship there (since the puranas is just a retelling of the Vedas). Why is it absent in the Vedas? Why is it absent in the Upanishads? Why is it absent in the Sri Rudram? If it is absent in the Vedas, it CANNOT be present in the puranas. It is like a great novel and its movie; the movie dramatizes the story of the book. This reasoning establishes that there is indeed no phallic worship in Hinduism.
Regards.
Pathma
Subject:
From: Ram Varmha
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8176]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Hello Ram,
Certainly most temples and cultures
in Hinduism have their own peculiarities which gives its own identity. There
are hundreds of such cultural and artistic peculiarities. These peculiarities
may not be shastrically approved but tolerated as this is the genius and
flexibility of Hinduism. There is a temple here in Telok Bahang,
Dear Nagalingam,
I did not quite catch the reference of the 'boat parade', in your note below, as pertinent to this discussion. The contents of 'Bharani Pattu', that I wrote was to show the layer of sexual connotation with the worship of Siva and Shakti, in that temple. Of course the Puranas are myths. So are most of the stories in all religions.
(That is another matter!).
But, the obvious reference to Siva in these Puranic stories show the connection between Siva, the male organ, Siva Lingam, Parvathi and the yoni, and all these tied up into interesting though fictitious stories.
Perhaps the whole concept of Linga worship may
have its origin in Sumeria or IVC. There are graphics showing a woman bent
forward being stroked or held by a priest, in front of her, while a fully ithyphallic
man tries to enter her from the rear. Similar seals have been unearthed in
other parts of
But, having said all that, I think that the Siva Lingam is a beautiful symbolic representation of the creation of life, both cosmic and natural and as such worthy of respect and reverence. I cannot see it any other way.
Regards,
Ram
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8177]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Now instead of seeing these truths in the purana stories, it is unfortunate that scholars link these linga stories to phallic worship (although there is an allusion here), and see the linga as a phallus. If they have any doubts, they should go back to the Vedas and see if there is phallic worship there (since the puranas is just a retelling of the Vedas).
Puranas are not "retelling" of the Vedas.
Why is it absent in the Vedas? Why is it absent in the Upanishads? Why is it absent in the Sri Rudram? If it is absent in the Vedas, it CANNOT be present in the puranas. It is like a great novel and its movie; the movie dramatizes the story of the book.
It's not totally absent from these works. We hear of the Sisna-devatas in the Vedas, for example.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8178]
Then, please inform us.
Make sure you point out clearly how it’s tied to linga/phallic worship.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8179]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Then, please inform us. Make sure you point out clearly how its tied to linga/phallic worship.
Well the writings are not meant for children with everything having to be spelled out explicitly.
When the texts speak of Siva's linga in Parvati's yoni, all of us adults know what the reference(s) are.
If you want to say Siva and Parvati do not have sex organs, ok, they technically don't have human bodies either. However, linga and yoni are taken from the form of the human sex organs.
The imagery of the Linga, the creative power, is the male creative organ.
"Sisnadeva" and "Sisnadevata" from the Rigveda are pretty much self- explanatory.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
Re: Forms of Siva [zizna-devâh - Sumerian derivation? - SV]
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8185]
Dear Paul
Can you give the references to the occurrence of
'sisna-deva' in Rig Veda? I have the book and I want to look at the context of
occurrence to bring out the real meaning. Any way let me give a meaning by
taking it as Archaic Tamil. In Sumerian we have a word 'ses' meaning a child,
e.g. ses-kuli utu-mu (Ta. sisu kuli utu-moo: My childhood friend was Utu, the
sun). 'ses' is an arche form of Ta. sisu, child and Sk. sisya, son, student
etc. Thus sis-na or sis-nam can be 'children' or offspring' . Now devata is a
later variant of Su. dingir(> Ak. dimmer> diwer> Ta. divvyam deevam
etc)
Thus 'sis-na devata" is the deity of offspring, the Power that generates species repetition with sis-na-deva, the Father and sis-na-devata the Mother of all things.
Also I believe that many puranas are not of Vedic
origin. Quite a number of them may be traced back to many germs in
SumeroDravidian sources. The Vedas did not promote
We have take up intensive studies of the Sumerian puranas to see exactly how the Hindu puranas and itikasas are ultimately Sumerian in origin.
Loga
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8189]
Dr. K.Loganathan wrote:
Dear Paul, Can you give the references to
the occurrence of 'sisna-deva' in Rig Veda?
Rgveda VII. 21.
5; X. 99. 3.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8190]
Sisnadevas are foreigners, barbarians, neolithic or tribal people who worshipped a stone planted on the ground. Sisnadeva can also mean the worshipped stone on the ground. This is what the rig mentions and clearly it is not a Vedic practice. Scholars (again!) have compared it to sivalinga worship and conclude its one and the same thing.
The rig does not speak kindly of these people, again indicating that Vedic practices does not contain phallic/sisnadeva worship. This reference to sisnadevas is a sure sign that phallic worship is not a Hindu practice and should not be confused with linga worship. In fact this would be further clinching evidence of non acceptance of phallic worship in the Vedas. Sisna means penis, and linga means symbol. Yoni means pedestal and bhaga means vagina.
Even now there are hill tribes in
Thank you for your contribution, but I curious as to why you disagree that "Puranas are not "retelling" of the Vedas." The way I see it Veda is a record of truths in verse, prose and dialogues, whereas the purana is a retelling of the same truths in play, myths and drama. No new material is unfolded in the purana, only a retelling of old ones.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8193]
Hi Ram,
The bharani festival and the boat parade are just
examples of various regional, cultural peculiarities. Each temple have have its
own peculiarities, like the pasupatinath templeof
A large part of my post was devoted to interpreting the purana stories that you provided and requested for. And it fully explains the truths revealed in the puranas. The story itself and its innuendoes, connotations and allegories itself is to be disregarded. The writer uses it, as well as language and polysemy of words as pun to weave a tale and demonstrate his point. I hope you will read it again, all 16 points and more in the previous link, and you will see the point of the purana.
If the writer wanted to explicitly mention that the fallen linga must be placed in Parvati's vagina, he would have used the word ' Parvathi's bhaga' rather than 'yoni'. By using yonihe implicitly means a pedestal but using its other connotations as innuendoes.
Many seals have been found depicting many things
but I have always asked myself what has this got to do with Hinduism and linga
worship. Even tribes here in
Later, it may have stylized to the take the shape of the Linga and Siva associated with it because Siva/Rudra was a virile deity. (I hope I'm not getting close to Courtright...God forbid!). - Ram
I do not think it was an evolutionary process of change and incorporation. There was always temple/linga worship, and there was yagna worship too, from time immemorial. But at some point in history, temple worship came to dominate, abruptly, as shown in the puranas, and yagna worship was incorporated in temple rituals.
As I posted much earlier, the authors of the 28 saiva agamas, which deals with temple worship, are ALSO authors of the Vedas. This being the case, they could not have taught different things in the Vedas and agamas, and neither could the Vedas and agamas have been written far apart in time. The Vedas contain the chants and the agamas contain the temple rituals. And the agamas therefore cannot be different from the Vedas in their teachings. Which also means linga worship, devoid of any phallic connotations, must have been there since the time of the Vedas.
The fact that several neolithic tribes also practiced phallus worship should not be confused with sivalinga worship of the Veda and agama.
Regards.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8196]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Sisna means penis, and linga means symbol. Yoni means pedestal and bhaga means vagina.
Linga also means phallus and yoni has also the meaning vagina. There's no doubt about this.
The earliest linga for centuries looked exactly like a phallus. You can see the evolution of the icon into its current PC form.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8205]
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
Sisna means penis, and linga means symbol. Yoni means pedestal and bhaga means vagina. Linga also means phallus and yoni has also the meaning vagina. There's no doubt about this.
Right. And the House of Lords is a temple, and the pope is a father, Pasupati is a cattle farmer, the world was created in six days, dildo means linga and vice versa, the web is a spider's home and a mouse is to be clicked, 'home means front page, and....
You have to use the intended meanings to understand myths which adults, scholars and surfers' have no problem with. :)
Nevertheless, urdhvalinga and sisnadeva only reinforces that there is no phallicism in Hinduism. Indeed the Rig tells the Hindus to fight and slay the sisnadevas. Or did you miss this too?
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject: Re: Forms of Siva
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8207]
> > Linga also means phallus and yoni has also the meaning vagina. There's no doubt about this.
> Right.
Absolutely, it is used in this matter in the erotic literature. When used together there can be no doubt what linga and yoni refer to. The neo-Puritan has trouble with this, but mature complex-free folk can handle it with no problem.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8206]
Since understanding mythopoetry and mythopoesy is an issue, I am posting this. Without understanding mythopoesy one will be making grevious mistakes in translating texts and its intended meanings.
Enjoy.
cIrADa eTRa vairavan
vAkanam
cEra vandu tARARu
nAn mugan vAkanam
tannai paTRikonDu
nArAyaNan uyaru
vAkanam AyiTRu.
nammai mukam pArAn.
maivvAkanam vandE
en vayiTRil paTRinanE.
The vehicle of Bhairava deserving of praise came and took away the vehicle of the four-faced one. It became NArAyaNa's vehicle on high, and nobody looked at my face. But the sheep-vehicle one Burnt in my stomach when this was done.
This poem sounds like a riddle, and it can be understood only when one is familiar with the mythopoesy of the Vedic/PurANic framework. In particular, we need to know that the vehicle (vAhanam) of Bhairava (Siva) was a dog, of BrahmA (the four-faced one) was a swan, of NArAyaNa was a vulture, and of Agni (Fire) was a sheep. Note the ingenious away in which the poet has brought together the three primary divine principles (trimUrti: BrahmA, VishNu, Siva) of Hindu vision as well as the primary deity (Agni) in the Vedic framework.
The context of the poem was very mundane: Once,
when this poet was on a pilgrimage, carrying some food, he stopped by a river
to take a bath. When he was in the water, a passing dog ate off the cooked rice
he had kept as meal after his bath. The food flew away, as it were, like a
bird. The result was that the poet was left ignored by all, and he began to
feel the fire (pang) of hunger in his stomach. The imaginative and verbal
richness of Tamil and the countless allusions of the poets to the broader Indic
tradition are reflected in this verse. But equally it is an instance of the
word-plays we find in Tamil literature. Here, for example, aside from the
allusions, there is a bi-lingual pun. The Tamil word for swan is
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8209]
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
Absolutely, it is used in this matter in the erotic literature. When used together there can be no doubt what linga and yoni refer to. The neo-Puritan has trouble with this, but mature complex-free folk can handle it with no problem.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Trust me on this one. I have no sexual complexes. I am pro-choice on all matters.
I do have a problem with Phallacy that scholars have been toting for a century. They say, a theory is a hunch (flaccid?) with a college education. Rajaram Doraswamy is already talking about you. :)
Be that as it may, perhaps you would like to enlighten us, on your interpretation of the puranic myths that Ram Varhma requested for in his post no. 8140, and the truths to be learnt from those, from your point of view of copulation, of course.
You will see that from the phallic and copulation interpretation, the myths make no sense, much like the article on mythopoesy that I posted.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8212]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
I do have a problem with Phallacy, that scholars have been toting for a century. They say, a theory is a hunch (flaccid?) with a college education.
Give us a break. You sound like an old school
marm. Basically you're trying to fit the ancient religions of
Not only with regard to phallus worship but also in denying animism, totemism, etc. exists in Hinduism.
The earliest linga starting around the 3rd century BCE were realistically portrayed as the phallus. Some have Siva or other deities (Trimukha) engraved on their sides. These were naturally derived from earlier phallic stones dating back earlier than IVC.
Possibly external influence had some part in development of the modern linga form.
Again, in the Kamasutra and various erotic, medical and other Sanskrit texts linga and yoni explicitly mean penis and vagina respectively.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8214]
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
Give us a break. You sound like an old
school marm. Basically you're trying to fit the ancient religions of
Not at all! I just need the truth, which I think has been denied to the western educated scholars for a century. I ask for a reference in the vedas and all you could manage was sisnadevas! Bah!
Jesus is mentioned as Son of God and Son of Man scores of times in the New Testament, but so central a theme like phallus worship is not at all found in the vedas, or agamas? You, give me a break!
Not only with regard to phallus worship but also in denying animism, totemism, etc. exists in Hinduism.
I simply do not think there is phallus worship or animism in Hinduism. Its non Indians who have romantic notions of Hinduism, and they want us to fit into their version of the picture. Well those good days are over. These things will not hold anymore.
The earliest linga starting around the 3rd century BCE were realistically portrayed as the phallus. Some have Siva or other deities (Trimukha) engraved on their sides. These were naturally derived from earlier phallic stones dating back earlier than IVC.
Were these shastrically approved? This is what I keep asking. If these icons were an accepted part of Hinduism, why isn't it reflected in the 64 forms of Siva, fit for worship in temples? (How many do you need - 108 forms?) Why aren't the Vedas shouting about phallus worship, since western scholars say the vedas were written in the 2nd century BCE?
Again, in the Kamasutra and various erotic, medical and other Sanskrit texts linga and yoni explicitly mean penis and vagina respectively.
Kama Sutra and Susruta's works are not Hindu works, in much the same way Aristotle, Plato, Copernicus or even Aurelius have nothing to do with Christianity. These (Indian) writers will not speak for Hinduism.
I have not said that there is no phallus worship. It does exist among tribals and neolithic cultures. But what has it got to do with Hinduism?
By the way, where is your, phallic/copulation interpretation of the puranas that we are asking for? This would resolve most of the misunderstanding.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8216]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Jesus is mentioned as Son of God and Son of Man scores of times in the New Testament, but so central a theme like phallus worship is not at all found in the Vedas, or agamas? You, give me a break!
Since linga combined with yoni usually means phallus, yes there are "scores of times" that it is mentioned.
By the way, where is your, phallic/copulation interpretation of the puranas that we are asking for? This would resolve most of the misunderstanding.
Interpretation by whom? There are scores of such interpretations, at least.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah
Nagalingam
Date: Sun
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> > Jesus is mentioned as Son of God and Son of Man scores of times in the New Testament, but so central a theme like phallus worship is not at all found in the Vedas, or agamas? You, give me a break! [Pathma]
Since linga combined with yoni usually means phallus, yes there are "scores of times" that it is mentioned. [Paul]
Please relate to us the 'scores'. In the Vedas and agamas that is. Don’t bother with the rest of texts.
> By the way, where is your, phallic/copulation interpretation of the puranas that we are asking for? This would resolve most of the misunderstanding. [Pathma]
Interpretation by whom? There are scores of such interpretations, at least.
Regards, Paul Kekai Manansala
We just need your interpretation, Prof. Just give us YOUR reading, untainted by the academia's insistence. What do YOU make of it! I have given my interpretation.
Regards.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
Date: Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8219]
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Paul Kekai Manansala wrote:
> > > By the way, where is your, phallic/copulation interpretation of > > the > > > puranas that we are asking for? This would resolve most of the > > > misunderstanding. > > > > > > Interpretation by whom? There are scores of such interpretations, > at > > least. > >
We just need your interpretation, Prof. Just give us YOUR reading, untainted by the academia's insistence. What do YOU make of it! I have given my interpretation.
Well, copulation between Siva and Parvati is mentioned on copious occasions. Siva used his linga for this purpose. Pretty simple.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
From: Pathmarajah Nagalingam
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8248]
> > > > By the way, where is your, phallic/copulation interpretation > of > > > the > > > > puranas that we are asking for? This would resolve most of the > > > > misunderstanding.
> Well, copulation between Siva and Parvati is mentinoed on copious > occasions. Siva used his linga for this purpose. Pretty simple.
Sources, please.
And I asked for your interpretation of the 3 puranic myths. Please read.
[Pathmarajah Nagalingam]
Subject:
From: Tony 785
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8249]
It is quite disconcerting to see that even in todays information and technology age, people are ignorant of basic facts!
Although it is a rare person indeed that could profess to know it all, certain types of fundamental facts need to be known if one wants to question.
Siva cannot be known or perceived by our mind or intellect because he is ween Rudra and stranscendental to the material creation. It is only out of his supreme mercy and Love that he expands a portion of himself into this world, as we know it, and this expansion can be categorised into eight aspects. The five basic elements (earth, water, fire, air and ether), The pairs of opposites (this represents two categories) and Man. Gods presence in the aforesaid eight categories is said to be his imminent or perceivable qualities. It is in these forms that he is initially perceived during spiritual evolution and through further progress the actual experience is said to be beyond words or description (literally speaking).
Some of the ways in which one can describe the experience
of SIVA are:
1. Truth
2. Knowledge
3. An overwhelming flood of love and bliss, beyond what
our bodies can endure for more than a few seconds.
4. and countless other ways
Siva is described as a state of being that one eventually
evolves to and some of the qualities are:
1. The complete lack of lust.
2. The complete lack of anger.
3. The complete lack of delusion.
4. Equanimity of vision i.e. loss of dualities.
Another common fallacy is the confusion between Rudra and
siva. Rudra is not siva.
Subject:
From:
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8194]
Dear Friends,
Do Tamils have a history of worshipping phallus and yoni (vagina)?
Is there any evidence for it among indigenous Tamil philosophical and religious texts, temple sculptures and other art forms?
If indeed Tamils did not practice worshipping phallus and yoni initially but they do so now, from which source did this practice come from?
How do we reconcile phallus worship with the practice of circumcision among some Tamil groups as part of their culture?
Thank you.
Regards,
Sathia.
Subject:
From: S. Sathia
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8182]
Dear Friends,
Recently I came across this 'information' from a friend who is studying Hinduism:
That there are two ways forward:
1. one vertical ascendance in the direction of God 2. Horzontal movement via sex.
In adopting the sexual preference, the easier of the two, the underlying theory is that the women are the source of power or energy. Thus having sex with women of positive energy, a man gets to move ahead. Likewise, sex with women of negativity such as prostitutes leads to taking over the bad karma of the prostitues thus leading to decay.
Apparently, in the Mahabarata story, Dhraupathi served as
the source of power to the five Pandu brothers who shared her. Likewise, it is
alleged that sharing of virtuous wives is actively practiced among a certain
group of
Can anyone else throw more light into this?
Thank you.
Regards,
Sathia
Subject:
From: Tony 785
Date:
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8197]
I recently visited this site and found some aspects of great interest, especially with regard to the topic in question:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/virtue/VContent.html
It is alleged that some type of strong psychic connection forms when two people have sexual intercourse with one another. This allegation further asserts that this psychic connection lasts for about 12 years. The direct inference is that one gets affected by the psychological states of all the people one has had sex with - in varying degrees depending how many years has elapsed from the last sexual contact.
It would then follow that one is also affected by the positive psychological states of those strongly positive people with whom we may have been sexually united.
I recently questioned myself on the relevance of abstaining from sex within marriage for the purposes of spiritual progress. I have come to the conclusion that it is not spiritual progress to abstain from sex with one's wife. The religious view is that by virtue of marriage and subsequent sexual relations between the husband and wife, the both parties become ONE BODY and ONE MIND. So by abstaining from sex after a few years of marriage, reverses this effect. The parties become more and more separated from each other. Although it may be argued that these parties must retract their attentions from each other and redirect it to a higher purpose, but of course, we can also argue why can't this be a joint venture as a one combined entity. It is a great fallacy that is currently being propagated by modern "Gurus" that one must renounce married life and seek god. How can god be sought when one abandons a dutiful wife of many years.
I always think back to some of our previous teachers and saints. Thiru Valluvar died a married man. Saint Sundarar is reputed to have request the assistance of God in his Love affair with his two wives.
I seek support for my view that all modern gurus
should be more careful in advocating celibacy to married people. This brings
more misery and is a very selfish rule where only the guru and so called
disciple benefit to the detriment of a helpless wife and family that usually
get abandoned.
Subject:
From: Paul Kekai Manansala
[Abhinava msg #1291 – order of thread reversed]
To: Akandabaratam
Sent:
Pathmarajah Nagalingam wrote:
Now instead of seeing these truths in the purana stories, it is unfortunate that scholars link these linga stories to phallic worship (although there is an allusion here), and see the linga as a phallus. If they have any doubts, they should go back to the Vedas and see if there is phallic worship there (since the puranas is just a retelling of the Vedas).
> Puranas are not "retelling" of the Vedas. [Paul]
Why is it absent in the Vedas? Why is it absent in the Upanishads? Why is it absent in the Sri Rudram? If it is absent in the Vedas, it CANNOT be present in the Puranas. It is like a great novel and its movie; the movie dramatizes the story of the book.
> It's not totally absent from these works. We hear of the Sisna-devatas in the Vedas, for example. [Paul]
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
Ardhanarisvara and the Linga-Yoni
From: Paul Kekai
Manansala [Akandabaratam msg #8213]
Date: Sun
Statues of Ardhanarisvara, the union of Siva and Sakti, show the ithyphallic linga coming out of the yoni:
http://www2.cddc.vt.edu/mtm/Figure8.jpg
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
Subject:
Re: Ardhanarisvara and the Linga-Yoni
From: Pathmarajah
Nagalingam [Abhinava msg
#8215]
Date: Sun
Stone carvings indeed. Anyone can see its metal carvings! So much for accuracy in the website. This site is dedicated to art and we know what artists are like; they are in the troposphere in imagination.
How in the world can anyone see a linga 'emerging' from a pedestal in that image? (I must be losing my mind) :)
Please do not post art websites in this discussion; just post Vedic quotes. That’s all I ask.
Subject: Fw: Phantasising of PHALLACY.
From: Dr. K. Loganathan
Date: Sun
Subject:
Fw: Phantasising of
PHALLACY.
From: Jayashree Haiharan
To: [K. Loganathan]
Sent:
Dear Dr. Loganathan,
The following message which I had sent on 14 Nov seems to have missed the mail box of akandabaratam and other groups. Hence I am mailing the same to your personal address. We have paid money two months ago for the new internet connection. The workers have come only yesterday to start the installation of their equipment. Silent endurance is the only way to cope with such slow-coach groups. I hope within one week things should be O.K. Om Namah Shivaya
Rajaram Doraswamy.
----- Original Message -----
Subject:
From: Jayashree Haiharan
To: akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Dr. D. Rajaram,
Dear Dr. Loganathan and all my learned colleagues,
Our recent mails have expressed resentment and revolt in the trend of research scholars belonging to different faiths attempting to tell us Hindus what we should be as they think of us as what we are.
The outlooks and the theories are obnoxious, puerile and vulgarized by reducing great cosmic realities to levels of Freud and Jung who see nothing but PHALLACY in everything visible. How could any learned scholar worth his salt be subdued by their research publications? Ordinary people look out for some reading material for 'time pass'. Some books they read provide stuff to get a bit of auto-erotic excitation and soon they find their legitimate place in the thrash cans. Such books are nothing short of just subtle 'porno' stuff. It reminds me of an instance where a guy was shown a doughnut and asked to say what it was. He said that he did not know the name but that it is a cookie with a sex appeal. Now when persons with such attitudes grow, they carry their puerile outlooks into adulthood and become scholars and earn their Ph.D. what else does one expect from them but fantasizing of PHALLACY.
It is amusing that certain philosopher of the yore
said that God deposited his seminal fluid and mixed it in the waters and
created all life forms. Spermatozoa are haploid and contain only half the
number of genetic factors which have to be reconstituted to full complement at fertilization.
And fertilization is a biological process where the divine deploys techniques
to bring the male and female to merge and blend. It is nothing short of
perversion and a defiance to rise above the level of auto-erotic attributes
professed by Freud or Jung which is very much reflected in the interpretation
of cosmic matters by perverted scholars. Now, if a person like Courtright
visits
And lo! how would we rate the scholarity of Courtright when we compare his understanding to the realizations of the five blindfolded men who were asked to identify the parts of an elephant. The man who held the trunk did say that it is a pillar but under no stretch of imagination did he say that it is a phallus! Had Courtright been that fifth man who held the trunk and meddled with it to make the flaccid trunk (phallus) rigid, what would have been his destiny? It is a matter of dismay that our recent mails have seen the restless expressions of revolt and resentment of our learned members at the attitudes of scholars of different faiths who seem to have no insight beyond the puerile and perverted auto-erotic attitude who frequently refer to Freud and Jung. Let us generate sufficient endurance and develop a 'pachyderm' attitude to puerile phallacies of writers. They are psychotics who have illusions that the Snake, Ganesha, Shiva, and what more to conceptualize are exhibitions of rigid or flaccid phallusses. When Courtright spoke about the trunk of the elephant as a flaccid phallus, did he for a moment not think that the female elephant has also a very similar trunk!!
We shall very soon present the cosmic dimensions of Ganesha as "GANAPATHY MAHATHWAM".
Rajaram Doraswamy.
Re: Fw: Fantasizing of
PHALLACY.
From: Kesava Pillai
Date:
Sun
To: [Akandabaratam msg #8211]
Pranam,
It is a matter of dismay that our recent mails have seen the restless expressions of revolt and resentment of our learned members at the attitudes of scholars of different faiths who seem to have no insight beyond the puerile and perverted auto-erotic attitude who frequently refer to Freud and Jung.
I fully agree and endorse your views that of late some of the participants have been attaining a sort of lewd pleasure by extrapolations of the sacred texts and their definitions leading to many discussions.
Someone wrote in these postings whether anybody could have an extensive discussion of the sexual life of Prophet or the married life of Jesus after escaping crucifixion and these would be termed sacrilegious.
But Hinduism is an open topic discussed by Hindu-s themselves in such a degrading level to the joy of other religious groups.
Perhaps the moderator could make efforts to curtail such postings or at least edit them
Dr. Rajaram has definitely expressed his dismay which many of the members of this group have been feeling but have not expressed so far.
GPKPillai
[Part I /
Part II]